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  1. #1

    Ret: Crit vs Haste

    I've had a few debates with fellow ret pallys on what stat is point for point "better" for a ret pally, agi/crit rating or haste. Now I know its gear dependent, and everyone's item weights are going to be slightly different, but my intuition is telling me the crit is better, and while pondering this question at work today I've come to a few assumptions:

    Haste is good for a ret pally for a few reasons: increased melee strikes and thus more seal damage, as well as a greater chance for divine storm CD to proc through these increased melee strikes (this is theoretically a dps increase). But at the same time, doesn't the human error in not hitting divine storm every time it comes off cd instantly take away from that benefit? Even though your still benefiting from that haste in regards to your weapon swinging faster, your not getting as many actual divine storm uses per fight as a simulator would say you are. Not to mention the fact that sometimes mana is an issue for us now. So even if you are getting every divine storm when it pops off cooldown, which is difficult but by no means impossible, you run the risk of going OOM through these increased DS uses, or have to blow a gcd on a divine plea. And how many times has DS came off CD during the middle of a GCD? nearly every time, and if it doesn't, you probably miss it 9/10 times because your already spamming another ability.

    Next is my reasoning is why crit/agi is a better stat than haste. It has to do with ret paladin mechanics and how they interact with the ICC buff.

    If I'm assuming correctly, the increased damage ICC buff is applied per spell usage. For example, you use judgement of vengeance on a mob, the game takes your stats at that very moment as well as other factors such as mob debuffs and talents and calculates the amount of damage that spell does, then just multiplies that number times 1.x, with x being the ICC buff level we are at right now.

    So lets say your judgment would normally hit for 10k crit on a mob with no ICC buff. With the current buff level of 10%, it would be displayed as 11k, a 10% total damage increase. But since it was a crit, righteous vengance comes into play, and with RV comes another strange ret mechanic with the crusade talent and undead mobs.

    With no ICC buff that 10k crit would place a righteous vengeance debuff on the mob that would do a suspected total of 3k damage. But with the crusade talent (4% more damage to undead and other types of mobs) that 3k total dot is increased to 3120 damage. So your total damage done by a judgment crit is 13120.

    With the ICC buff that 10k crit is going to be bumped up to 11k. The RV DoT total would be 3300 (the 30% of the initial crit) multiplied by 1.1 (the current ICC buff as of 3/30) multiplied by 1.04 (crusade talent), totaling 3775.2, bringing the final damage done by that judgment to 14775.2

    14775.2 divided by 13120 = ~1.1262, a 12.62 total increase to judgment, DS and CS crits. This is the reason why I believe crit is either superior to now or will overtake haste (as the ICC buff increases) in terms of point for point itemization. Now I know I haven't taken everything into account. There are about a million little factors you could throw into the eqaution, and how that specific equation actually translates into specific boss fights in ICC is extremely hard to calculate and I just don't have the time to do it. But my gut feeling tells me that the absolute passive benefits to crit and agi outweigh the benefits that added haste brings to a ret pallys rotation and damage.

    I'd like to hear what the ret pally community has to say about this. Remember, this is just my opinion supported loosely with some numbers. By no means am I saying that hands down I'm right. I'd hope to see some more numbers in your arguments too and what you have to say on the situation. And remember...

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  2. #2

    Re: Ret: Crit vs Haste

    Crit. The question you're asking is just like asking "is apple red? or blue?"

  3. #3

    Re: Ret: Crit vs Haste

    Crit, but the difference is less than it use to be but a fairly substantial amount.
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  4. #4

    Re: Ret: Crit vs Haste

    Not that I am contributing a whole lot to your conversation here, but the newest Rawr actually has the option to add the ICC zone buff.

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  5. #5
    Deleted

    Re: Ret: Crit vs Haste

    Crit is slightly better but you also forgot one important thing about haste..it also reduces GCD and it's definitely a big DPS boost with many abilities getting lit up at the same time.

  6. #6

    Re: Ret: Crit vs Haste

    Quote Originally Posted by ita
    Crit is slightly better but you also forgot one important thing about haste..it also reduces GCD and it's definitely a big DPS boost with many abilities getting lit up at the same time.
    I could be nuts, but no. Ret pallys cannot reduce their GCD is any way whatsoever.

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  7. #7

    Re: Ret: Crit vs Haste

    Only reduces GCD of conc and exo.

    Its presumed that it might help with melee GCD in Cata...

    Crit, point for point, is probably always better than haste (up to a certain % of crit). HOWEVER... you forget how haste will scale with T10, TAJ, and Shadowmourne. All those proc effects are helped by haste... and with t10 damage increasing seal damage. More melee hits = more seal procs (and more TAJ procs).

    I generally take crit gear over haste gear... in most cases. But the combination of crit/haste on a single piece of gear is BY FAR one of the best itemizations we can ask for. This is why Sindragosa's heroic 25m neck is BiS if you don't need the hit. It has agil (crit) and haste on it.

  8. #8

    Re: Ret: Crit vs Haste

    In case you haven't been to the Ret EJ page recently here it is : http://elitistjerks.com/f76/t68951-r...updated_3_3_a/

    I'm referencing the Stat section of the EJ link. Crit has always been better than haste per point mostly due to RV. For T9 2 piece crit was further buffed over haste because something else has the ability to crit.

    In t10 haste was buffed by the fact that, yes, you get more divine storm procs the more often you swing but it definitely wasn't enough for haste to out perform crit because RV is still really good (whether it has the ability to crit or not).

    I like your point about the 5% - 10% increased damage. I believe you are probably right in the assumption that RV will double dip into that damage buff since the crit will be higher => the RV damage will be higher and the RV damage will be again increased by the damage buff. So crit is being buffed again.

    All in all, crit has always been better than haste, and now even more so.

    For procs: T10, TAiaJ, Shadowmourne, I'm assuming that yea, haste will proc these more often, but crit will make these, well crit more often. :-\ Can anyone confirm haste outperforming crit on these procs?

    BTW: agility is also better than haste, and EJ has a good explanation if you would like to double check that link.

  9. #9

    Re: Ret: Crit vs Haste

    I Know that crit is better than haste, but I still see ret pallys using the 23 haste enchant, and I've even seen some top end pallys using black magic instead of beserking for their weapon on my server. I was hoping for more of a response from people that are haste lovers and why they choose to do so. Come on, I know your out there defenders of the haste!

  10. #10
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    Re: Ret: Crit vs Haste

    Quote Originally Posted by Prentice
    I could be nuts, but no. Ret pallys cannot reduce their GCD is any way whatsoever.
    exorcism? maybe? :P
    never though about checking

  11. #11

    Re: Ret: Crit vs Haste

    If you're on the "haste is good" side of the debate, you're wrong.

    It only reduces a couple of GCDs.

  12. #12

    Re: Ret: Crit vs Haste

    Had so many people think they're clever by using the haste = more swings = faster stacking argument, so here it is once again:

    T9 2pc - Crit >>>>> Haste

    No T9 2pc - Crit > Haste

    Haste is crap, even agility is better than haste (just).

  13. #13
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    Re: Ret: Crit vs Haste

    Quote Originally Posted by shakkenbake
    I Know that crit is better than haste, but I still see ret pallys using the 23 haste enchant, and I've even seen some top end pallys using black magic instead of beserking for their weapon on my server. I was hoping for more of a response from people that are haste lovers and why they choose to do so. Come on, I know your out there defenders of the haste!
    Because per point haste is better, 23 > 22. Now, if you had to chose between 23 haste or 23 agility, go with the agility, unless you are near crit "soft-hard cap", which is usually when you wear Leather.

    As for the Black magic enchant.... that can only proc off of Exorcism and Consecration, sooooo yeah.

    Quote Originally Posted by Nienniora
    exorcism? maybe? :P
    never though about checking
    HL, FoL, Hand spells, SS, Exorcism, and Consecration are affected by Haste in terms of reduced GCDs.

  14. #14

    Re: Ret: Crit vs Haste

    Quote Originally Posted by Wonderboy
    Had so many people think they're clever by using the haste = more swings = faster stacking argument, so here it is once again:

    T9 2pc - Crit >>>>> Haste

    No T9 2pc - Crit > Haste

    Haste is crap, even agility is better than haste (just).
    "Haste is crap" is very wrong .. But ye Crit > Haste

  15. #15

    Re: Ret: Crit vs Haste

    Quote Originally Posted by Ronark
    As for the Black magic enchant.... that can only proc off of Exorcism and Consecration, sooooo yeah.
    As of 3.3.2, this is the list of abilities that will and will not proc Black Magic:
    Quote Originally Posted by Boodah
    Just did some testing, and this might be worthy for retribution paladins:

    Tested, confirmed to proc:
    Judgement
    Exorcism
    Hammer of Justice
    Repentance
    Consecration (on cast, only if the first tick will affect an enemy)
    Holy Wrath (on cast, only if it will affect an enemy)
    Vindication
    Turn Evil

    Tested, confirmed to NOT proc:
    Seal of Vengeance (seal damage)
    Seal of Command (seal damage)
    Hand of Reckoning
    Hammer of Wrath
    Righteous Vengeance (application or tick)
    This does not mean that I support the use of this enchant by a ret pally. I am simply correcting a previous poster.

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  16. #16
    Immortal Ronark's Avatar
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    Re: Ret: Crit vs Haste

    Quote Originally Posted by Prentice
    As of 3.3.2, this is the list of abilities that will and will not proc Black Magic:
    This does not mean that I support the use of this enchant by a ret pally. I am simply correcting a previous poster.
    I thought the spells had to do damage to proc it.

    Though Judgement being on there is interesting, since it is a Melee attack.

  17. #17

    Re: Ret: Crit vs Haste

    Judgement has one of those really annoying schizophrenic mechanics behind it.
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  18. #18

    Re: Ret: Crit vs Haste

    Everyone saying haste sucks... is Rawr broken or making some 'interesting' assumptions?
    Shows Herkulm on top of H WFS with a DV, and on top of H DV when a TAiJ is equipped (with the EJ values that is).

  19. #19
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    Re: Ret: Crit vs Haste

    Quote Originally Posted by Rukli
    Everyone saying haste sucks... is Rawr broken or making some 'interesting' assumptions?
    Shows Herkulm on top of H WFS with a DV, and on top of H DV when a TAiJ is equipped (with the EJ values that is).
    Make sure that "Stacked Trinket Reset" is set to 2.

  20. #20

    Re: Ret: Crit vs Haste

    Quote Originally Posted by Rukli
    Everyone saying haste sucks... is Rawr broken or making some 'interesting' assumptions?
    Shows Herkulm on top of H WFS with a DV, and on top of H DV when a TAiJ is equipped (with the EJ values that is).
    I'd like to know what settings you are using. H DV is ahead of Herkuml by a large margin. Using EJ's fight and buff settings, I am showing H DV/DC to be worth 855.00 DPS whereas Herkuml is only worth 638 DPS. You might wanna check your settings.

    Quote Originally Posted by Rukli
    Everyone saying haste sucks... is Rawr broken or making some 'interesting' assumptions?
    Shows Herkulm on top of H WFS with a DV, and on top of H DV when a TAiJ is equipped (with the EJ values that is).
    EJ uses Stacked Trinket Reset as 1, but it makes very little difference. According to Rawr, the difference between a setting of 0 and a setting of 1 is only 20 DPS. Bumping the setting to 2 results in another 20 DPS loss on that trinket. The difference isn't groundbreaking enough to make HWT any better than 8th best (including both version of DC/DV, TAiaJ, and WFS). Even H DBW is better than HWT when you have the "best" gear.

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