ICC (WotLK) raid system is killing my guild!

[Gilian]

Anyone else having the same experience? I think i saw a post about it a few weeks ago.

Two weeks ago one of our best raidleaders quit wow because he was bored with raiding. Before and after that there were 2 or 3 people who quit because they didn't like to raid anymore and because of personal reasons irl.
Next week 5 people are going to quit raiding, including me, because they are bored with raiding. We raid this last week so officers can find new people to replace us.

The normal/heroic system is just incredibly boring. We are "only" on 8/12 HM on 25 man. We have more then enough potential to clear 11/12, but there is just not enough motivation.

I have never seen this before in the 4 years i play WoW. 8 or 9 people quiting raiding in just a few weeks just because they get bored. The guild is fine, great progress, nice atmosphere. It's just the content, in my opinion.
I think this raiding system is just failing. Anyone else experiencing this?

[Shiggity]

People burn out, it happens.

In no way is this new, been happening since WoW started.

Start working on your resume / application to someone else.

And yes, it does suck.

[CSJenova]

There have been numerous "guild killing" bosses throughout the course of WoW...I don't think your problem is exclusive the the HM/normal set up as you say it is. It happens. If you are getting bored, best to move on anyway. Find something you enjoy doing, rather than playing a game you don't like anymore for the sole purpose of "beating" it.

[krasgoth]

People "getting bored" of an mmo is a problem that's existed since the start of them. The only reason people notice is the fact it's a multiplayer game, so you see your friends leave when people finally do get bored.

If you got bored of playing Super Mario 64, no one would notice or care.

Usually when your raidleader quits though, people are going to go with him. Personally, if mine left, I would have little motivation to play the game (at least on that server) in the first place, since he makes the raids fun and makes them happen.

[elcher]

short answer: yes

long answer: WotLK content just suuuuucks, i dont really have any motivation to keep playing because its just the same shit all over again and again and again....and again.. uuhh hardmode, so interesting doing the same boss with ramped up numbers..

please give "real" content to us blizzard, please!

[Deleted]

Its cos there no sense of progression.

TBC you'd clear t4 raids then move onto t5, then move onto t6.

in wotlk you clear t7... then your forced to farm it for 4 months, same with t8, t9, and t10 it seems were gonna farm it for 10 months.

There just no sense of progression with the way raids are released in a staggered way like they are now..

[AnotherPaladin]

People burn out. Plain and simple. I don't think it's the content really, I mean I guess it could be, but it's unlikely the culprit here. They'll most likely be back in a few weeks/months.

[Paulosio]

Happened to my guild too. We Used to hover around top 100 on wowprogress but we seem to have regularly lost people lately and have slipped down as low as 300 during Icecrown but think we recovered a little bit to about 200 now. The problem was made worse by the fact our GM who has complete control of dkp, our website all our recruitment posts etc has been away for personal reasons which meant we couldn't even open recruitment to replace people (we only had about 29-30 players even before people left. We are 10-12 at the moment but 2 weeks ago we couldn't even get a full raid to try Putricide and last week due to absences of our already tiny roster we didn't make a single pull on Putricide HM.... luckily we seem to have some good trials now and with the help of the 10% buff we should definitely kill Putricide. I've not known so many people to become tired of raiding at the same time though.

[coolaide2]

Happened to the guild I was in prior to the new one im in, move on I guess.

[shadet]

Its cos there no sense of progression.

TBC you'd clear t4 raids then move onto t5, then move onto t6.

in wotlk you clear t7... then your forced to farm it for 4 months, same with t8, t9, and t10 it seems were gonna farm it for 10 months.

There just no sense of progression with the way raids are released in a staggered way like they are now..

Really? I guess you weren't around for much of TBC then? TBC went

Clear Kara, Farm Kara with 2/3 groups
Gear up enough to clear Grull's and Maggy
Make sure everyone had completed the quest line and thus could now go to TK / SSC
Clear TK / SSC
Farm TK / SSC till blizzard added BT
Make sure everyone had done the quest line ready for BT
Clear BT
Farm BT till bliz added Sunwell
Farm BT / TK / SSC till you were actually geared for Sunwell
Clear Sunwell
Quit the game

Meanwhile casuals were going

PUG(Farm Kara, Farm Kara, Farm Kara, Farm Kara, Farm Kara) Clear ZA
Wait for Bliz to add patch 3.0
Clear BT
Level to 80

Unless you were in one of the more 'hardcore' guilds in TBC (which I doubt or you've blocked out the mass farming from memory) then progression for Casuals was pretty much just like it would be if you started raiding at the ToC patch. And the current ICC buff is the same as the 30% nerf. Also, unless you've killed LK 25 HM then you're not farming, your still progressing!

In response to the OP, it's always the way, people get bored of games it's just more noticeable in an mmo where you have a much deeper relationship with the people you meet than most other games. It's unfortunate but not something anyone can really help. Difficulty of content or amount of content will never really change this I'm afraid.

[Gron]

I have a suggestion.

Change raiding a bit.

Everyone has a bottle of whiskey and a glass next to him.
A mage dies in raid, everyone says "Cheers" and drinks a glass.

Seriously, change raiding attitude a little.

[Leidus]

Its cos there no sense of progression.

TBC you'd clear t4 raids then move onto t5, then move onto t6.

in wotlk you clear t7... then your forced to farm it for 4 months, same with t8, t9, and t10 it seems were gonna farm it for 10 months.

There just no sense of progression with the way raids are released in a staggered way like they are now..

As shadet already pointed out, this isn't really accurate. Especially for people who were on the cutting edge of progress in TBC. They farmed raids for months waiting for the next one to come out. The fact that you got started later doesn't mean that all raids had a clear progression path to Sunwell for the entirety of the expansion. And it also doesn't change that guilds still had to spend months farming gear unless they were extremely lucky with drops before they were able to move on anyway. BWL was designed for people who farmed T5 gear, not people who were cool enough to clear SSC/TK and move on right away.

My guild got started late in TBC too. And it sucked. Sure, we had places to go as soon as we had the gear to move on, but because we started up a few months late, we were behind other raids that weren't any more skilled than us, just hit less issues and drama going from 40s to 25s. Now, in WotLK, raiding is more accessible, so more and more people can be on the cutting edge of raiding. You can pretend it's because the encounters are easier, but it's only true when wearing rose colored glasses. You can't honestly say Anub'Arak or Yogg'Saron even on 25 normal are easier than Nef or Rag. The difference is the gear is more accessible, as is getting into raids. There are more raids per server than in vanilla and TBC (I have no statistics to prove this, but it's pretty obvious) and therefore you have to share your achievements with people you think are less skilled than you. Boo hoo.

[grimkiller]

So, WotLK raid are the same over and over and over again...

What did people do in Vanilla?
Run the same 5-mans over and over and over to get the gear to run MC over and over and over so they could run BWL over and over and over and AQ 20/40 over and over and over.

In BC, it was run heroics over and over and over to run Kara over and over and over to move to Gruuls/Mags, then SSC TK over and over and over to get to SWP to run that over and over and over.

Is it just me, or am I seeing a trend here?

Bottom Line: Doing the same thing (i.e. playing an MMO, raiding the saem zones, running BGs, arenas, whatever) over and over and over will burn people out. It's not the content so much as it is the time spent on it.

Take a break, do something else, come back later if you want.

[kenneth044]

Perhaps you should just change your playing time a little. If you play 6 hours a day, then you will eventually "burn out". if you change that to 12 hours a week instead, then you might keep an interest in the game, just like taking a break does...

[Deleted]

I think that the current hardmode functionality is a bit to the blame.

Im not in one of the top-end guilds but i blame motivation.
When i was trying on Deathbringer HC for the first time i just felt a major lack of motivation.. Nothing really big has changed in the fight.. it was just booring. been there done that.

So the fact that hardmodes essentially is the same fight (differs ofcourse from fight to fight) makes things booring much quicker than usual.

[TyGuy25]

I raided through original Naxx, BT, and am currently on the LK 25m. The thing is, in the old school dungeons, they were FUN. ICC pretty much sucks its so easy, aside from the Professor, and the LK. Granted Professor is a cake walk now, but eh. The thing is, what do have to look forward too? going back and doing all those fights over again? for like 20 more agility / 5 more crit? Its pretty stupid.

They've replaced overall hard instances that took your guild a few nights of learning, with "herp derp don't stand in fire" or vehicle fights, which are free loot.

The only people who really don't have a problem with the current system, are the ones who are really not that far into ICC, and started raiding at the ToC level. The heroic mode for raids sucks, but blizzard wants to make money.

I'll tell you right now, if ICC had no hard modes, and all the fights where their "heroic" difficulty, it would have felt like a true end game instance. I'm sure most guilds would still be on Saurfang, and that would have been fine IMO, because in 4 more months, you'll have 30% more damage / hp / heals, so they would have seen the content just not as quickly as they are now. And that would stop the need for these filler instances.

IMO, Algalon is the best designed fight in this game. No RnG, all massive damage, and the smallest slip up is a wipe. He is hard, but doable, I don't agree with the 1 hour time limit, But his encounter is what every boss fight should be. Not RnG lololol fire (I'm looking at you firefighter :|)

Anyway, WoW gets real easy for raiding = Dumb System to try and keep them hooked = People getting burned out because it to easy, and they slice through the content like butter. And don't care about hard modes, because its the same fight, with one extra variable.

[Sharpton]

It seems like you're missing the fact that hardmode isn't supposed to be a different instance, yet more of a replacement of the actual instance for those who wish to do something that's harder for better gear, the essence of the instance is the same, but the effort required for a successful raid is much higher, and therefor you can give something to the players who wish to progress for realm firsts and something to the players who just wants to see the content but isn't essentially as interested in the gear.

[rayvio]

I really wish they'd stuck with the way they did the hardmodes in Ulduar. yes, it was gimmicky but guess what, that's exactly what made it fun. having to do something to trigger the hard mode rather than just toggle a switch and having the hard mode version be significantly different while still retaining the basics of the encounter. Mimiron is one of the best examples of a great hard mode, as is Sarth3D
compare that to Toc or ICC and it's easy to see why so many raiders are getting bored. you put in the time and effort to unlock the hard modes only to find they're really not all that different, just the same fight but it takes longer

[krasgoth]

I'll tell you right now, if ICC had no hard modes, and all the fights where their "heroic" difficulty, it would have felt like a true end game instance. I'm sure most guilds would still be on Saurfang, and that would have been fine IMO, because in 4 more months, you'll have 30% more damage / hp / heals, so they would have seen the content just not as quickly as they are now.

Another whine about hardmodes.

Listen, just compare stuff in ICC Heroics to let's say, Black Temple. Let's go with Marrowgar and Najentus.

Marrowgar:

Stack under marrowgar. Kill bonespikes. Tanks move back and forth. BONESTORMMMM people run away like crazy, dodging, killing spikes, overall chaos, rinse repeat.

Najentus:

Spread out, shoot najentus in the face. If someone gets spiked, pick it up. Throw spike when everyone's healed. Repeat.

There are bosses that are fun to deal with with interesting mechanics in both (Professor, Blood Queen, Valithria in ICC, Gorefiend, Supremus, Reliquary in BT) and then there are bosses that are just silly "Oh, they're here" bosses (Lootboot, Shade of Akama) and then bosses which are just plain fun.

Personally, I find it not the bosses themselves, or the difficulties that were the issue between say, MC, Tempest Keep and ICC, but the SCOPE that wasn't done as well.
When you fought Baron Geddon in Molten Core, the whole room was yours to use, you had a huge area to spread out 40 people in and you couldn't screw it up by exploding people.
Same thing with say, Thaddius in Naxx. You had a giant room with 2 platforms, which you had to jump down and engage him by running all over the place. Or hell, A'lar in TK, or Void Reaver. Supremus in BT, Vashj in SSC. You have a giant room/play area to play with, everything feels a lot more free, like you have a lot more options.

A lot of ICC is lacking that. Marrowgar is just a big guy in a room. Lady Deathwhisper is tanked on a narrow platform. Gunship is... interesting, but its not challenging enough to have merit. Saurfang is just a guy at the top of a teleporter. Festergut and Rotface are just 2 guys shoved in rooms, although Rotface has cool slime pipes. Blood Queen is just crammed in a little room. Sindragosa has a huge room, but you only use 1/6th of the actual size.

The only fights that have an actual scope are Professor, Lich King and Valithria, which is no doubt why the bosses seem so fun. There's stuff that can happen from everywhere, not just "Ok frost tombs, line up in a line at the bottom of the stairs.." it's, "Careful, move to the edge of the defile, a Val'kyr can come from anywhere, and move from defile! Soul Reaper! Spirits! Ahh!" or "Blazing skeleton northwest, get on it!" while the other side is handling rot worms, stuff like that.

[Leidus]

I raided through original Naxx, BT, and am currently on the LK 25m. The thing is, in the old school dungeons, they were FUN. ICC pretty much sucks its so easy, aside from the Professor, and the LK. Granted Professor is a cake walk now, but eh. The thing is, what do have to look forward too? going back and doing all those fights over again? for like 20 more agility / 5 more crit? Its pretty stupid.

They've replaced overall hard instances that took your guild a few nights of learning, with "herp derp don't stand in fire" or vehicle fights, which are free loot.

The only people who really don't have a problem with the current system, are the ones who are really not that far into ICC, and started raiding at the ToC level. The heroic mode for raids sucks, but blizzard wants to make money.

I'll tell you right now, if ICC had no hard modes, and all the fights where their "heroic" difficulty, it would have felt like a true end game instance. I'm sure most guilds would still be on Saurfang, and that would have been fine IMO, because in 4 more months, you'll have 30% more damage / hp / heals, so they would have seen the content just not as quickly as they are now. And that would stop the need for these filler instances.

IMO, Algalon is the best designed fight in this game. No RnG, all massive damage, and the smallest slip up is a wipe. He is hard, but doable, I don't agree with the 1 hour time limit, But his encounter is what every boss fight should be. Not RnG lololol fire (I'm looking at you firefighter :|)

Anyway, WoW gets real easy for raiding = Dumb System to try and keep them hooked = People getting burned out because it to easy, and they slice through the content like butter. And don't care about hard modes, because its the same fight, with one extra variable.

I've been raiding with the same group since our first MC pull. We didn't clear AQ40 or Naxx, but we did get Illidan down, no Sunwell though. So we're not quite as hardcore as your group, but we're not the casual "farm Kara wait until 3.0 kill BT" group that I would get accused of being for saying what I'm about to say.

You are the minority. To most guilds, ICC isn't "herp derp don't stand in fire" win. For us, the progression is somewhat challenging at times. For you, they added hard modes. The only thing they failed to do is give it to you right away so you could go straight from ToGC25 to ICC25 Hard. Going from ToGC25 to ICC25 Normal is almost like doing ICC 25 Normal after you've cleared it a bunch and have a full set of gear from it. Of course it's easy. But ICC25 Normal isn't meant for people who were farmin ToGC25 before ICC was released.

Did you also complain when AQ20 came out and it was stupid easy for you in full BWL gear? Because it wasn't tuned for people in BWL gear. Did you also complain when ZA came out and you were in full T5 and it was easy? Because it was for people in Kara gear.

Of course ICC25 Normal isn't a challenge when you enter a raid that drops 264 gear and you're in all 258 from ToGC25. You're practically at the gear level of it. But for us who started out in 245, we've had some fun progressing.