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  1. #21

    Re: Strength of Wrynn + Power Word: Shield

    And Paragon's the only guild who has killed LK25HM. One could say they're kind of in an entirely different tier of playing and ability than the average 11/12 guild, wouldn't one?

    Oh and I still don't see justification for bringing less healers than the usual for the sake of "killing a boss faster". Wouldn't you rather just do your business as usual, particularly on limited-attempts bosses where things going awry costs you a "learning try" on the largely-unbeaten final boss? They have pretty much the best DPS in the world; they could go 9 healers on everything and still kill things faster than my guild.

  2. #22

    Re: Strength of Wrynn + Power Word: Shield

    To go back to the actual issue, absorbs are kind of messy at the moment, which blizzard wants to fix in the near future. I can't say how reliable such tests are but I've noticed that the combat log will leave out some details in some cases. For example, Shadow Ward completely absorbing shadow damage that would normally be much higher, which means a partial resist also occured but isn't shown.

    I wouldn't completely rule out the possibility of SoW having unintended interactions with absorption effects, talents or scaling, though. If it works out in your favor, all the better.

  3. #23

    Re: Strength of Wrynn + Power Word: Shield

    Quote Originally Posted by Clemx
    And I'll just say it again. DPS has never been an issue for us in terms of needing to drop a healer. If we ever ran head-first into an enrage timer, it was a matter of poor execution from the raid at their role (be it DPS or healer).

    So go on then, link me a WoL run of a "high end progression guild" going 5 healers on everything. Can't find any? That might have something to do with the raid leader not wanting to take any stupid risks where they are completely unnecessary. ICC25HM isn't Sunwell in speedrun mode just yet, considering only one guild's even cleared the place.
    LK25H is the only difficult fight in there and as above... the only guild to kill it used 5 healers. Hmmmm. It's not about 'needing to drop a healer' it's about wanting our raid to make sense. Why do you need superfluous healers? Extra DPS can always DPS. Extra healers cause healers to burnout because they don't feel worthwhile as they all roll their eyes at 75% overhealing.

    As far as looking up progression guilds? Most of the top-200 or so guilds don't have public logs. Some don't even use WoL, or WMO. They use parsing executables and post the logs on their websites. Hmmmm. :

    Seriously, if guilds want to use 8 healers, they can probably do it. We tend to start a new fight with 7 for the first attempt or two, then check from there. Most of the time we drop to 5 healers and on a few fights we drop to 4. The only fight we go with more on is Dreamwalker, which we 10 heal. Same reasoning though, faster fights are (drumroll) easier. Most fights in ICC are designed so that the longer you spend in particular parts of the fight the harder the fight is. More DPS makes things easier, so that's what we do.

  4. #24

    Re: Strength of Wrynn + Power Word: Shield

    Most of the top-200 or so guilds don't have public logs.
    Another thing made up on the spot! You're on a roll mate, what's next? Just take a gander at WoL these days; just because Paragon and Ensidia don't have public logs for every single one of their raids, doesn't mean the large majority of "nicely ranked" guilds don't. After all, where would I have come up with the 6~ healer average number if I hadn't looked it up for myself?

    I can see pointing out the difference of LK25HM's healer count (hint: it's got something to do with an incredibly stringent DPS requirement - they simply couldn't kill things on time with another healer period) to the rest of ICC25HM is going to pass over your head, much like the rest of my points have.

    To you high end progression guilds going 6 healers or more for any encounter, take a note out of an anonymous poster on MMO-Champion. Your healers are apparently quite worse than his and all you are doing by going 6+ healers is increasing overheal. Nothing to do with limited attempts being in a pool shared by 4 bosses, nothing to do with having your back in case shit hits the fan. Nope. It's all about overheal and wasted potential!

  5. #25

    Re: Strength of Wrynn + Power Word: Shield

    Quote Originally Posted by Clemx
    I can see pointing out the difference of LK25HM's healer count (hint: it's got something to do with an incredibly stringent DPS requirement - they simply couldn't kill things on time with another healer period) to the rest of ICC25HM is going to pass over your head, much like the rest of my points have.
    Just for luls: If you paid attention when the announced the kills they actually said that the DPS requirements were lower than they thought they were because they had included 100% of his health instead of 90% and even then they were well ahead of the enrage. They needed a good 12-15k less DPS than they had.

    Either way, watch what those high end guilds do on their second and third kills. Dropping to fewer healers is extremely common. Shortens P3 Sindragosa with is the only real difficulty. Lets you kill slime/gas faster on Putricide. Lets you beat the main DPS race in ICC on BQ. Yeah, I wonder why we're using less healers and more DPS. Must be bad DPS! Oh wait, no, they just don't require tons of healing and once people are used to the fight extra healers might as well AFK.

  6. #26

    Re: Strength of Wrynn + Power Word: Shield

    Actually unlike you, I'm not just making stuff up and saying top guilds are going with the bare minimum of healers for fights they've already beaten. I've actually bothered going through WoLs of top 15~ guilds and guess what's the common vein in them? 6 healers on average, up to 7 or even 8 on Sindragosa. WITH the 10% buff. They even use 6 on BQL HM, where you (supposedly) use 4. Wow, they are so silly, right?

    And saying LK25HM being hardest fight in game ergo ICC25HM in its entirety should be healed by 5 healers or less, just fails to make sense. Take the elements of these fights prior to LK for which excellent guilds still bring 6-8 healers - a raidwide pulsing damage aura for the fight's entirety would be a start, add them to the LK, and you'll have one monstrously impossible fight (particularly if the fight goes on for over 16 minutes in length).

  7. #27

    Re: Strength of Wrynn + Power Word: Shield

    Quote Originally Posted by harky
    Shortens P3 Sindragosa with is the only real difficulty. Lets you kill slime/gas faster on Putricide. Lets you beat the main DPS race in ICC on BQ.
    I'd like to point out a few things:
    1) Sindragosa p3 is a control phase, not a DPS race. You seem to not be aware of how unchained magic works, if you think 5 healers is optimal there.

    2) With 6-7 healers and 10% buff, slime dies before Putricide activates, which means they die in a proper timeframe.

    3) I'm not sure if you are aware of this, but most guilds 1-3 shot her when heroic modes opened, that's how much of a joke she is. The "main dps race" in ICC is Lk heroic, end.

    By all means, carry on.

  8. #28

    Re: Strength of Wrynn + Power Word: Shield

    1. We haven't used 6+ on her since the first night of attempts. More DPS allows you to power through P3, often not destroying more than 2-3 tombs.

    2. This isn't just about the P3 transition and even if it was you could bring up that P3 Putricide is a DPS race. The quicker they die the better.

    3. We two shot her as well. First attempt was with 7 healers, second with 4 when we realized how zergable it was and how little healing was required. Lich King is a coordination fight above all else. Blood Queen is nothing but a DPS race. See who can finish fastest and get your free loot.

  9. #29

    Re: Strength of Wrynn + Power Word: Shield

    I'm just gonna let this thread resume its previous programming because you have once again skirted around the issue of me calling you out on your BS with "top guilds always go with a skeleton crew of healers, tell yours to L2P". I've gone through the WoLs of these guilds, I've seen their average healer count, and I'm more inclined to go with concrete numbers and their experience rather than an Anonymous on MMO-C forums.





    So how about that 10% buff, eh!

  10. #30

    Re: Strength of Wrynn + Power Word: Shield

    Quote Originally Posted by harky
    Lich King is a coordination fight above all else.
    It is? I find our main issue being the dps, on Lk25 heroic, not executing it. Sure, the learning phase dealt with execution-related wipes, but now it's mainly DPS that seems to be the problem.

  11. #31

    Re: Strength of Wrynn + Power Word: Shield

    Well, compare Blood Queen to LK, is my point. I'm not saying Blood Queen is the highest DPS requirement (Lich King is higher, Festergut and Putricide are at least equal). But what do you do on her? Stand and pew pew pretty much. There are things where you need to move to center, or kite around the outside, but for the most part you just zerg and zerg and burn her down. Lich King it's about coordination. P1 is mostly a zergfest, but transitions and P2/3 it isn't just about blast away. It's about putting there right DPS into the right targets at the right times, lining up burst properly, slowing, moving in and out, etc. Don't read too much into it, calling her a DPS race to me is roughly the same as saying she's 'patchwerk', or 'tank-n-spank'.

    Oh and Clemx, I could care less about skirting issues. We have a fundamental disagreement and I'm fine with that, I don't need to waste more time seeing which of us has the bigger ego.

  12. #32

    Re: Strength of Wrynn + Power Word: Shield

    Quote Originally Posted by Saliz
    It is? I find our main issue being the dps, on Lk25 heroic, not executing it. Sure, the learning phase dealt with execution-related wipes, but now it's mainly DPS that seems to be the problem.
    Im pretty sure harky is just talking about normal mode.

  13. #33

    Re: Strength of Wrynn + Power Word: Shield

    Quote Originally Posted by harky
    You know 13k+ HPS is possible on some ICC fights, right? As Holy, certainly not Disc, but yeah... You might have turned away a really good player. :-\
    http://www.wowmeteronline.com/rank/c...ps/pri/9/0/3/3

    15k + hps as disc. Maybe not ehps though.

  14. #34

    Re: Strength of Wrynn + Power Word: Shield

    Yeah, WMO is broken for shields. We know. :P Check the top log on say, Blood Queen and check the fight time compared to the PW:S casts. Go to #2, repeat... and repeat and repeat. You'll find one thing, which is why WMO is such garbage if you're Disc: PW:S is read completely wrong. Check the first log for instance. Almost 16k HPS! Amazing! Fight duration - 5:17, PW:S casts - 1,053. So uh, how did he get a .3 second GCD exactly?

    You can break 13k HPS as Disc on... Dreamwalker, if you're boss healing. That's about it.

    Edit- oh and your log, here: 888 PW:S in a 301 second fight? That's amazing. Managed to cast PoH/Penance once, 8 Flash Heals and 17 Binding Heals and 15 PoM too? .32 second GCD? Awesome.
    Edit2- Got bored and did the math, using your glyph procs as an assumption and putting your shields at 10k each (not actually possible even with the +10% buff) you come out at 11.5k HPS. Impressive, but not 13k.

  15. #35

    Re: Strength of Wrynn + Power Word: Shield

    It just looks broken because of how its calculated. On bql all of your shields will lead to effective healing, so if your shield absorbs 10k with a 1 sec gcd that's roughly 10k hps just from shields. Add pom, which will bounce 5x and heal for 5-10k every 10 seconds and 13k is very reasonable. Also if you preshield your ehps in teh first 10 seconds of the fight goes through the roof, and then there's borrowed time/PI divine hymn. 15k raw hps is real like it or not. It's actually WoL that rapes disc priests by giving absorbs huge nerfs and making disc priests who shield less look better on meters. I've my share of #1 and #2 parses on both sites so I'm not just saying that out of bias.

  16. #36

    Re: Strength of Wrynn + Power Word: Shield

    Yeah, pre-shielding 25 people even with 100% absorbed would only add another 250k healing over a 5 minute fight is only another 800 HPS. Still well shy of 13k. Keep thinking those WMO or WoL logs are remotely accurate. They're not.

  17. #37

    Re: Strength of Wrynn + Power Word: Shield

    What's so difficult to understand?

    In a 10 second period you cast 9 pw shields and 1 PoM.

    Raw HPS
    9x (10k absorb + ~2k glyph heal) = 108k
    PoM x5 bounces = ~7.5k x 5 = 37.5k

    108k + 37.5 = 145.5k healing over 10 seconds = 14.55 raw hps

    Add in preshield which you say adds 800 hps, and divine hymn which usually heals ~100k over 2-3 seconds. It's pretty clear to see how top disc priests are breaking 15k raw hps. Is there anything else I can clear up for you?

    What about if you get lagged or you dont cast on every gcd etc etc?

    7 shields and 1 pom every 10 seconds = 12.1k hps not taking into account preshield or divine hymn.

  18. #38

    Re: Strength of Wrynn + Power Word: Shield

    Quote Originally Posted by Zixx
    I've been getting some inconsistent absorb amounts in Icecrown Citadel with the Strength of Wrynn buff active, in 3.3.3.

    Inner Fire and Strength of Wrynn were the only buffs I had.

    Before I went into ICC, I tested my absorbs on a mob outside the instance, which gave me my absorb amount of 8781.
    http://img15.imageshack.us/img15/9531/nosow.jpg

    Inside ICC, I took screenshots of combat logs. If you'd like a WoL/WMO parse let me know and I can make one.

    http://img401.imageshack.us/img401/6843/none1.jpg
    http://img9.imageshack.us/img9/1864/none2o.jpg
    http://img52.imageshack.us/img52/8707/none3.jpg
    http://img249.imageshack.us/img249/270/none4.jpg

    On one of my tests however, I got an absorb amount of ~12k.
    http://img100.imageshack.us/img100/5325/sow12k.jpg


    I was wondering if others were having the same problem, or maybe someone can point out an error I'm making.
    Ok, what I get here from the first 5 images is that every single shield absorbed EXACTLY 8781. In every log, you have got SoWrynn (there's a line for it appearing, not a line for it fading). Admitting you had the exact same gear/spec/etc in and out of ICC (which I believe you had, otherwise it would in any case take a HUGE coincidence to absorb EXACTLY 8781 damage in and out).

    Conclusion : SoWrynn appears not to be working on your shields (I would tend to say "doesn't work on shields", but the proof you bring is that it doesn't work on your priest's shields, might vary by faction, race, server, whatever).

    As for the 12k+ shield, the only possible rationnal explanation I would have is that both hits came at the exact same moment, thus "eating" the shield at the very same time, not allowing the server to "refresh" the remaining amount of absorb. I remember early in TBC there was a problem with rogues' Mutilate where both his could be annihilated by a "half shield" (I mean, 500 shield up, both hits hitting for 500, instead of having one absorbed and the other hitting, both were absorbed, because they hit at the same time). IIRC they changed the way shield (or was it mutilate ?) works on a client-server point of view to solve the problem. (My "knowledge" of how a mmorpg works stops here )
    Quote Originally Posted by Dark
    I dont know why everyone expects thing to be rebuilt after a cataclysm. Last time i checked, earthquakes dont fix roofs.

  19. #39

    Re: Strength of Wrynn + Power Word: Shield

    Quote Originally Posted by TiduZ
    What's so difficult to understand?
    Apparently a lot for you. Here's your log again.

    Now, let's assume that you have an extra 250k healing from pre-shielding the entire raid with 100% absorbed. Let's also assume you shield for 10,000. Keep in mind that you don't actually shield for 10k though, but 9.6k based on the log. Easier to work with though, right?

    Okay so, spell count:
    PoH - 1
    Penance - 1
    Binding Heal - 17
    PoM - 15
    Hymn - 1
    Flash Heal - 8
    Shadowfiend - 1

    We'll then make some lulzy assumptions with Penance being 1 second, PoH being 1.3, hymn being 2. So that's 45 seconds out of a 301 second fight. So that's an absolute maximum of 256 shields, which is 2.5m healing. Now we can add up your other healing which is recorded properly: 3.9635m healing. Maximum output: 13,167 HPS.

    Problem? Only 201 glyph hits. That means you only cast PW:S *drumroll* 201 shields, for 2.01m. That's 500,000 less healing that maximum which drops you by 1,661 HPS, down to *gasp* 11,505 HPS. Now we can add in your precasts, which is 25 shields for 250,000 healing. How does that relate to HPS? Well, it's a 301 second fight so it's easy... 250,000/301 = 830.5. So grats, you broke 12k HPS! Kudos.

    If you measure your 'peen' in centimeters and then say you measured in inches it's a lot more impressive too. By impressive, I mean meaningless.

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