63 Spell Power vs Black Magic

[Marowak]

Currently I have seen many top guilds shadowriests with 63 Spell Power on their main hand instead of black magic. Just wondering why they decide to choose 63 Spell Power over Black Magic.

[Regorious]

Maybe they have enough haste? im a mage though so cant really help you all that much

[fabian]

Currently I have seen many top guilds shadowriests with 63 Spell Power on their main hand instead of black magic. Just wondering why they decide to choose 63 Spell Power over Black Magic.

Because the difference between the two enchants is not large enough warrant the strict use of one over the other, not to mention that Black Magic is a PROC, so you are RNG's bitch in terms of usefulness from your enchant.

[harky]

Yep, the two enchants are on average almost identical for DPS. +63 SP gives a smaller DPS variation though so it's more consistent. Progression minded players like consistency, even when something could be a slight DPS loss.

[Strykie]

At 1250 Haste your MF will reach 1sec Cast time with heroism..... roughly....i think..
So if you have 1000 haste and black magic procs your right on the money, opting with 63sp allows more haste on your gear and less from procs.

[BoxofRox]

For progression and end game players, they have access to the best gear, stat weighs change and the SP could be worth more. As also meantioned, you want consistency, and a proc based enchant may not be best.

[harky]

At 1250 Haste your MF will reach 1sec Cast time with heroism..... roughly....i think..

2.5 / ( ( 1250 / 3279 + 1 ) * 1.03 * 1.05 *1.3 ) = 1.287 seconds.

So no, you're quite a bit off. You need 150% haste total to hit 1 second with MF. With Bloodlust and a Haste Potion and the BM proc all up you would need 1,802 base haste to reach a 1 second MF.

[fabian]

For progression and end game players, they have access to the best gear, stat weighs change and the SP could be worth more. As also meantioned, you want consistency, and a proc based enchant may not be best.

That is not true, stat weights are normalized to SP, so SP will never be worth more than 1. But I do get what you're trying to say. The gap between SP and Haste become bigger, so the value of Haste lowers.

[Frmercury]

It's true that it's more about consistency than anything else. Plus, I don't want to keep track of the proc on top of all my DoTs and encounter mechanics. I prefer to keep things simple.

[harky]

That is not true, stat weights are normalized to SP, so SP will never be worth more than 1. But I do get what you're trying to say. The gap between SP and Haste become bigger, so the value of Haste lowers.

That's only one way of normalizing them, which isn't at all the norm. The standard normalization is not equivalency points, but DPS gains. So if SP is at 1.7 then 1 SP will result in an increase of 1.7 DPS. It's only the people who like to think in terms of 'PP' which is a bastardization of the old 'AEP' that Rogues and Hunters used. Here's what Pseudo Power does (which is stupid): Take the scaling value of SP, then normalize to 1 and use then apply the same ratio to other stats.

So let's say your scale factor is 1.9 on SP. You get 1.9 DPS for 1 point of SP. So what PP does is takes it and divides by 1.9. Now 1 SP = 1 PP. Now, what people tend to ignore is that means that 1 PP is equal to a 1.9 scaling factor. Either way let's go with it. Let's say you have a 1.7 scaling on Haste. So now you take 1.7, which is the true scaling factor and then divide that by 1.9 to normalize it to SP. So you have SP = 1 and Haste = .8947... So, what does it mean? Not much of anything. The only time it's helpful is when gemming and even then it's only useful if you're lazy.

Any solid discussion on theory should be using stat weightings based on a DPS normalization, not a SP normalization. Ultimately you're just dumbing down something that's already very simple. You say a red gem is 23 PP, I say a red gem is a 43.7 DPS gain. Which number is more meaningful?

[jonish]

Currently I have seen many top guilds shadowriests with 63 Spell Power on their main hand instead of black magic. Just wondering why they decide to choose 63 Spell Power over Black Magic.

with current gear you can reach a point where black magic loses alot of its benefit. There is no cap on haste but your refresh speed on dots and your cast speed on mind flay can reach a point where it would be equally beneficial to just use spell power instead of haste while being easier to manage timers.

the difference between black magic and 63 spell power is also very minor. I can understand there reasoning.

[jonish]

2.5 / ( ( 1250 / 3279 + 1 ) * 1.03 * 1.05 *1.3 ) = 1.287 seconds.

So no, you're quite a bit off. You need 150% haste total to hit 1 second with MF. With Bloodlust and a Haste Potion and the BM proc all up you would need 1,802 base haste to reach a 1 second MF.

i have 1220 haste. with hyperspeed accel , heroism and a speed potion my mind flay hits 1.1 seconds. Feel free to math that out if you would like.

[harky]

Do it yourself.

( cast time - cast time reduction ) / ( 1 + haste / 3279 ) / 1.03 / 1.05 / 1.3

1.3 is Bloodlust. 1.05 is 5% spell haste. 1.03 is 3% general haste. Remove as you desire.

For your case that would be: ( cast time - cast time reduction ) / ( 1 + ( 1220 + 340 + 500 ) / 3279 ) / 1.03 / 1.05 / 1.3

Still quite a bit off from haste capping on Mind Flay, even with BM up you're over 200 haste shy of being GCD capped on Mind Flay.

[Hargrimm]

With 4 piece t10, bloodlust, 3% haste, and 5% spell haste you need 3499 haste rating for a 1 second Mind Flay. Good luck getting that much haste.

[Broshious]

You say a red gem is 23 PP, I say a red gem is a 43.7 DPS gain. Which number is more meaningful?

I'd say they're equally meaningful. One number, as you said, is simply a scale factor of another.

[harky]

I'd say they're equally meaningful. One number, as you said, is simply a scale factor of another.

Okay, now can you tell me how much DPS I would gain from a 1.3 PP gain? If you need one number to explain what the other number does and both numbers are normalized you're just adding extra steps. The PP number has basically no meaning for SP. It has meaning for other stats, but only in comparison to SP and it offers no definition of SP. PP is retarded.

With 4 piece t10, bloodlust, 3% haste, and 5% spell haste you need 3499 haste rating for a 1 second Mind Flay. Good luck getting that much haste.

I just posted the formula on how to calculate this... makes me sad. 3,499 haste + BL + both haste buffs = 190.2% haste. You only need 150. The actual number is 2,552. ( 2552 / 3279 + 1 ) * 1.03 * 1.05 * 1.3 = 2.5001. Or 150.01% haste. Even without Lust 3,499 brings you to 1.118 seconds and Lust is 30% haste. 3499 would be pretty close to haste capped with just a haste pot + BM. It's 52 haste short of doing that.

[jonish]

look , the difference in black magic and 63 spell power is rather small. It IS an upgrade but with BiS gear your already managing a ring and two trinket procs. The increase from black magic is small and if you were that into worrying about the haste increase you would level engineering since it is a large upgrade over the normal glove enchant while also being easy to manage.

[harky]

Duh? My original reply:

Yep, the two enchants are on average almost identical for DPS. +63 SP gives a smaller DPS variation though so it's more consistent. Progression minded players like consistency, even when something could be a slight DPS loss.

As far as Engineering? It's a moot point. You need 1,462+ haste for there to be a conflict with the gloves + a haste potion up during Bloodlust. BiS gear doesn't even have that much. You'd need to deliberately stack haste regardless of if it was a DPS gain or not to have that much, so who cares.

[Weena2]

Shadowpriests don't use BM because:
a) It can proc at a bad time and be wasted
b) We'd rather have a constant dps increase than a random periodic one
c) 63 spellpower gives more dps during heroism

/thread

[Nezoia]

Personally I'm considering it, as our new 10man setup sometimes require me as a healer. I still find it "more fun" to use Black Magic.

Perhaps people should accept it's finally what we asked for in years. A choice between two equals. Take your pick, it won't make or break your output.