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  1. #21

    Re: [Priest] Talents & Glyph Discussion, version 2

    Where are my Smite builds ??? Okay, here they are:

    Smite Farming Build: 41/27/3

    Used for solo farming at level 80. Shield talents in Disc tree taken to allow Holy Nova AoE spam.

    Standard single target rotation: PW: Shield -> Holy Fire -> Smite x 2 -> SW: Death
    AoE rotation: PW: Shield -> PoM -> PULL!!!! -> Power Infusion -> Holy Nova spam fest

    • Spirit Tap - Mana regen after killing target, spirit bonus increases your spellpower temporarily
    • Spell Warding - Filler, switch to 2/2 Healing Focus and 3/3 Improved Renew for massive AoE pulls
    • Reflective Shield - Proc Surge of Light on damage
    • Rapture - 1 point cuts PW: Shield mana cost by 50% in moderate gear
    • Pain Suppression - For Elites, for massive pulls, for pvp ganking

    _________________________________________________

    Smite "Serious" DPS Build: 37/27/7

    Fun build for raids, including talents that increases all aspect of damage for a Smite priest.

    Standard single target rotation: SW: Pain -> Devouring Plague -> Holy Fire -> Smite x 4 -> Mind Blast/SW: Death
    Keep Shadow DoT running, renew them during 3 sec between Holy Fire cooldown

    AoE rotation: Power Infusion -> Mind Sear
    Mind Sear does more damage than Holy Nova regardless of Glyph of HN, so use it when movement isn't required.

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  2. #22

  3. #23

    Re: [Priest] Talents & Glyph Discussion, version 2

    The question is actually sarcasm, hope you caught that.

    As for the links, words do get around, so no need to link up year old threads. Anyway, the folks in those threads were discussing viability of Smite dps in raids, which I'm sure everyone will agree is pretty much non-existent at this point. However, Smite is good for other things such as grinding and leveling. I do advice you to try out the farming build yourself, as it's quite affective and gives a bit more rp flavor than shadow (in my humble opinion).

    The second part was a joke though heh, if your name isn't Xel and you spec into 37/27/7, let me know and I'll give you a cookie. ;D (for bravery)

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  4. #24

    Re: [Priest] Talents & Glyph Discussion, version 2

    Quote Originally Posted by Xel
    _________________________________________________
    Smite "Serious" DPS Build: 37/27/7

    Fun build for raids, including talents that increases all aspect of damage for a Smite priest.

    Standard single target rotation: SW: Pain -> Devouring Plague -> Holy Fire -> Smite x 4 -> SW: Death
    Keep Shadow DoT running, renew them during 3 sec between Holy Fire cooldown
    SW: Death shouldn't be in the rotation at all. The DPET is lower than Smite. SW has higher base damage, but the SP scaling is much worse. By the time you're in good gear SW isn't worthwhile anymore. It's also questionable if Surge of Light is worthwhile. At low gear levels it definitely is, but if you were ever to get BiS gear for a Smite build you'd be at 1,122 haste. That makes Smite 1/1.08/1.3 seconds (BL/PI/Normal). You'll also be sitting at ~55% crit so while you'd be getting a 0/.08/.3 execute time decrease you'd also be losing a ton from procs. You do have a very low crit scaling, but especially during BL/PI it's a dramatic DPS loss. Every time SoL procs you're looking at an average loss of 30% on damage, but a maximum gain of 24%.

    Probably the simplest DPS rotation in the entire game, really. Priority is: Smite w/ Holy Fire DoT -> DP -> SW:P -> Holy Fire -> Smite. Nothing more, nothing less. Mutilate Rogues and Arcane Mages actually have harder rotations to manage, which is funny.

    Anyway, Smite DPS is completely non-viable, Xel knows that. :P

    (Yes, very bored.)

  5. #25
    Bloodsail Admiral Frmercury's Avatar
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    Re: [Priest] Talents & Glyph Discussion, version 2

    I get a kick out of linking those "Smite sucks because EJ and GC said so" threads every time they crop just to deter those might believe otherwise.

  6. #26

    Re: [Priest] Talents & Glyph Discussion, version 2

    Actually a Smite spec would be the most efficient way to play (read: heal) heroics today as a priest.

    I don't think anyone ever considered it for serious raiding. But there's more to the game than that.

  7. #27

    Re: [Priest] Talents & Glyph Discussion, version 2

    Quote Originally Posted by harky
    SW: Death shouldn't be in the rotation at all. The DPET is lower than Smite. SW has higher base damage, but the SP scaling is much worse. By the time you're in good gear SW isn't worthwhile anymore.
    Glyphed SW: Death actually out damages Mind Blast regardless of gear level, and both Mind Blast and SW: Death out damage non-glyph Smite until 3500 spellpower. Holy Fire cooldown leaves a 3 second gap between each HF DoT session, during this time, the least damaging spell you can cast is Smite, followed by non-glyph SW: Death, Mind Blast, and then glyphed SW: Death. Of course, glyphed SW: Death is only affective when the boss is under 35% health, which is actually a good amount of time, so we shouldn't rule out SW: Death completely. I must correct my post to add Mind Blast into the rotation. SW: Death is useful for mobile fights.

    Surge of Light is questionable, but it helps with mana sustainability so there really isn't an option of not spec into it at this point in the game. I don't know the actual critical point in which a non-SoL build actually out dps a SoL build, but assuming you took into account that a SoL Smite also benefits from Twin Discipline (instant spell), I would imaging the critical point to be higher than 55%.

    GM/Raid Leader of <Air>, Sargeras-US, Alliance
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  8. #28

    Re: [Priest] Talents & Glyph Discussion, version 2

    Quote Originally Posted by Frmercury
    I get a kick out of linking those "Smite sucks because EJ and GC said so" threads every time they crop just to deter those might believe otherwise.
    Except if you were to scroll a little further down those threads, you would find posts made under my username participating in the hearty discussion over a year ago. I wouldn't call your finding a kick if it’s regarding something that old. Find something fresher to enlighten us next time.

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  9. #29

    Re: [Priest] Talents & Glyph Discussion, version 2

    For the shadow spec in pvp I believe this is the best spec

    http://www.wowarmory.com/talent-calc...10023152311351

    3s spec for burst with 5/5 twin discipline for maximum pressure.

    Its the one I'm currently use it I'm 2200 in 3s and going higher once I faction change tonight.

    Another spec is

    http://www.wowarmory.com/talent-calc...10023152311351

    With MS and meditation for regen, more of a 2s spec

    They are interchangeable and very fluid depending on your comp but those are the 2 I'll go for

    Hope this helps =]

  10. #30
    Bloodsail Admiral Frmercury's Avatar
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    Re: [Priest] Talents & Glyph Discussion, version 2

    Quote Originally Posted by Xel
    Except if you were to scroll a little further down those threads, you would find posts made under my username participating the hearty discussion over a year ago. I wouldn't call your finding a kick if it’s regarding something that old. Find something fresher to enlighten us next time.
    This will be my last post as to this specific discussion as this little tangent isn't particularly relevant to the thread.

    Those three links are from 12/21/09, 8/4/09, and 10/29/09. The oldest is 8 months old, the newest is less than 4 months old. To disregard them because of their age (even if they were a year old) wouldn't be prudent as nothing buff or nerf wise has really happened (aside from possibly the glyph) since then.

    The two GC quotes are the most recent posts from him concerning Smite. If you know of any newer ones, please share.

    The EJ link is the ultimate summation of the PvE Smite DPS viability thread that states quite succinctly why it was locked, and as a summation shows that there is mathematical backing (read the whole thread if you're really that curious *not directed at Xel ofc*) for why it's bad.

    I get happy when I tell people that things like Smite DPS being viable and Priests getting Holyform aren't going to happen and here's GC saying it. Where I get my kicks is my business sir, tyvm :P

    Also, saying that (different poster, I know):
    Actually a Smite spec would be the most efficient way to play (read: heal) heroics today as a priest.
    Would be incorrect. Shadow is probably the fastest way to heal Heroics. It takes the tank being decently (245+) geared and depending on where you go depends on how much in Shadowform DPS you get to do, but it's pretty fun and makes for very quick runs.

  11. #31

    Re: [Priest] Talents & Glyph Discussion, version 2

    Quote Originally Posted by Ttam
    For the shadow spec in pvp I believe this is the best spec

    http://www.wowarmory.com/talent-calc...10023152311351

    3s spec for burst with 5/5 twin discipline for maximum pressure.

    Its the one I'm currently use it I'm 2200 in 3s and going higher once I faction change tonight.

    Another spec is

    http://www.wowarmory.com/talent-calc...10023152311351

    With MS and meditation for regen, more of a 2s spec

    They are interchangeable and very fluid depending on your comp but those are the 2 I'll go for

    Hope this helps =]
    Ttam thanks for the builds. Can you pls check the second one cause I think you pasted the same link.

    On a sidenote, I am currently (after a long long time) using a non-SoL holy build to check it out. My first impressions are that the healing experience is much much smoother. The SoL proc gcds managed to mess up my spell selections at times.

    Cheers,
    K.

  12. #32

    Re: [Priest] Talents & Glyph Discussion, version 2

    So, a couple thoughts on these topics:

    Surge of Light: 1 point vs 2 points.

    Either is good, it depends on your play style and your preferences and you have to personally weigh out the pros and cons of the talent and having it proc more. Having two points will increase it's proc rate, which can sometimes be very dramatic (I have ran with both 1 point and 2 points to really decide which I liked), and if you have 2 point you will feel like it procs everytime you blink your eye. The biggest downsides though that made me decide to go with just 1 point are threefold: First, if you are in the middle of casting a Flash Heal, and SoL procs (from a PoM bounce for example) when you finish casting your Flash Heal it will consume the buff, so it basically doesn't matter that it proced (this actually can happen a lot with 2 points). Second, the instant cast flash heals are not able to crit, so there is a bit of a loss in healing done by denying the chance for a crit to do extra healing as well as in the end, it takes the same amount of time to cast a real one compared to an instant one, it's just the instant one has the healing loaded in the front of that time period. Third, a lot of times with a 50% chance to get a proc, you have so many procs that you end up wasting a lot of them when they occur when you don't need to heal, sometimes you just can't really use them fast enough, or more likely, it procs, and you can't afford to use it because you need to be doing something else at the time (so the buff just sits there and you waste it, and the opportunity to get a proc from what you were actually doing).

    Inner Focus:
    I am actually very sad when I think about this talent. It used to be such an awesome talent for flirting with the 5 second rule with the old version of Holy Concentration. Now the mana conservation aspect of having a free spell doesn't really matter, because once you have a bit of gear you actually have to try most times to run out of mana, and we do such a large amount of healing anymore that it's almost impossible to get outside the 5 second rule with it, not that you really need to anymore. So, really it boils down to a 25% crit increase on one spell once every 3 mins, which to me seems a bit sad for a talent that was once so awesome. So, I ended up not taking it.

    Shadow DPS, and dropping mind blast:

    So, there was some pretty decent theorycrafting over at shadowpriest.com that really boiled down to:
    First of all, Haste has nothing to do with this debate. At any value of Haste where your GCD > 1sec, Mind Blast will take exactly one GCD to cast and Mind Flay will tick 3 times over 2 GCDs, for 1.5 ticks/GCD. Haste only affects blast/flay balance after you are GCD capped. Assuming you have raidbuffs (+8.15% haste) but no Bloodlust, you will require 38.7% haste from gear or 1268 Haste Rating to hit the GCD cap. This is an unrealistic amount of Haste even for 3.3.
    and

    Blast vs Flay, T10 4pc
    At 3500 Spellpower and 35% crit, Mind Blast will deal on average 409 more damage than 1.8 ticks of Mindflay, for an 8% increase in damage. If you can get 5162 Spell Power or more, 1.8 Mind Flay ticks will hit harder than Mind Blast.

    As you can see, at any realistic gear level Mind Blast is still stronger than Mind Flay in terms of pure DPET. Anyone who says otherwise hasn't done the math.
    The original thread is here.


  13. #33
    Bloodsail Admiral Frmercury's Avatar
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    Re: [Priest] Talents & Glyph Discussion, version 2

    Quote Originally Posted by Vestari
    Shadow DPS, and dropping mind blast:

    So, there was some pretty decent theorycrafting over at shadowpriest.com that really boiled down to:
    and

    The original thread is here.
    That thread was terrible to start off with and is primarily filled with baddies making assertions with no (correct) mathematical proof. Griemak, Althor and a couple others interject fact and (good) math into the thread at various points, but overall that is one of the reasons why I dislike the free-for-all aspect of some ShadowPriest.com threads. This is an extremely frequently asked question and is sorely lacking from the current Shadow guide. I'll repost this here again for those who haven't already seen it as it is a fairly definitive answer to the question of dropping MB:

    Quote Originally Posted by Frmercury
    Q) So T10 4pc is pretty awesome, I should just stop using MB right?

    A) Not so fast there. It's not that simple even when it is... that simple.

    Firstly, lets establish if there's even a theoretical DPS gain from dropping MB. Go to this link, open the spreadsheet, check your stats on Armory and get either a Yes or No.

    http://elitistjerks.com/f77/t84746-s...riends/p7/#168

    If you get a No - keep MB in your rotation as outlined in the Rotation section

    If you get a Yes - yes, you can theoretically drop MB from your rotation. That said here's some food for though and pearls of wisdom from Griemak @ http://forums.worldofwarcraft.com/th...7476&sid=1#159

    Q u o t e:
    There are ISSUES with dropping MB:
    1. Error, network congestion, server latency, hardware lag, reaction time, attention deficit... etc. all contribute to make MF's DPET higher than MB's. These are the same environmental variables that affect MF's performance more than MB.
    2. Channeling is not easy. The more MF's you cast, the higher chance you have of screwing it up by losing the third tick, waiting for the channel to finish adding more delay, etc.
    3. [nochannel] macros will result in a DPS loss if you drop MB, the delay caused by [nochannel] macros will cause a lot of "downtime", this "downtime" can be reduced by casting [nochannel] less, AKA: MB.
    4. DoT uptime can suffer. Currently, Simulationcraft is showing an overall DPS loss when dropping MB. One reason among many is that the DP and VT uptime suffers due to the filler spell, MF, being a longer cast to finish before refreshing the DoT than using the binary filler spells of MB and MF. (can be negated by clipping MF at 2 ticks, requires higher precision and enters in more risk)
    5. It's boring, attention can be diverted, the mind may wander... precision in casting could suffer.

    Of course, many of the "issues" can also be gains if these issues plague your shadow priest today. For some, MF can relieve the congestion and confusion of the MB cooldown, upping your personal DPS. Just remember, that fixing these issues regardless of dropping MB or not would have been a DPS increase as well.

    I believe MB is safe, not due to Blizzard's design, but rather our error. It is through lag and latency that MF's DPET overtakes MB's, the same lag and latency that effects MF more than MB. The error that makes MF superior, supposedly, is the same error that can lower our overall DPS if we do drop MB

  14. #34

    Re: [Priest] Talents & Glyph Discussion, version 2

    "Disclaimer: This analysis was performed November 4, 2009. Future patch changes may invalidate the results of this analysis."

    : Dropping MF is a DPS gain at a certain point, been known for a while. In actual play it's an even larger gain because it also reduces clashing in the rotation and tends to increase DoT up-time. And yeah... actually read beyond the OP, almost all of the math was refuted later.

    Quote Originally Posted by Vestari
    Surge of Light: 1 point vs 2 points.

    Either is good, it depends on your play style and your preferences and you have to personally weigh out the pros and cons of the talent and having it proc more. Having two points will increase it's proc rate, which can sometimes be very dramatic (I have ran with both 1 point and 2 points to really decide which I liked), and if you have 2 point you will feel like it procs everytime you blink your eye. The biggest downsides though that made me decide to go with just 1 point are threefold: First, if you are in the middle of casting a Flash Heal, and SoL procs (from a PoM bounce for example) when you finish casting your Flash Heal it will consume the buff, so it basically doesn't matter that it proced (this actually can happen a lot with 2 points). Second, the instant cast flash heals are not able to crit, so there is a bit of a loss in healing done by denying the chance for a crit to do extra healing as well as in the end, it takes the same amount of time to cast a real one compared to an instant one, it's just the instant one has the healing loaded in the front of that time period. Third, a lot of times with a 50% chance to get a proc, you have so many procs that you end up wasting a lot of them when they occur when you don't need to heal, sometimes you just can't really use them fast enough, or more likely, it procs, and you can't afford to use it because you need to be doing something else at the time (so the buff just sits there and you waste it, and the opportunity to get a proc from what you were actually doing).
    This is a pretty good summary of why 2/2 SoL isn't desirable. It procs more often than you'll ever use it and when it does proc it isn't a huge advantage. The bugs with procs are part of why it's so horrible for Flash Heal based builds, but that also applies to the first point. The more you use Flash Heal the fewer the points you should have in SoL. If you cast it as your main filler you shouldn't have any points in it. If you cast it only in emergencies then 1 point can be helpful. If you don't cast it at all then you don't need any points. So: FH based build = 0 points, Renew based build that still uses FH sometimes = 1 point, Renew based build that does not use FH = 0 points. There really isn't a reason to have 2 points, ever.

  15. #35

    Re: [Priest] Talents & Glyph Discussion, version 2

    Quote Originally Posted by Ttam
    For the shadow spec in pvp I believe this is the best spec

    http://www.wowarmory.com/talent-calc...10023152311351

    3s spec for burst with 5/5 twin discipline for maximum pressure.

    Its the one I'm currently use it I'm 2200 in 3s and going higher once I faction change tonight.
    I don't see the point in taking Silent resolve 2/3 instead of Improved Fortitude or why would you take Shadow affinity with SR. If the healer is using his time in dispelling I usually try to take adventage of him trying to get all the dots off (spam VT)

    Just my thoughts, haven't played for few months tho

  16. #36

    Re: [Priest] Talents & Glyph Discussion, version 2

    He's more or less right for 3s. That's very close to the norm for 3v3.

    Some slightly better alternatives:
    http://www.wowhead.com/talent#bEIbzZZ0efbRfk0fqfkAo
    or
    http://www.wowhead.com/talent#bgIbz0hZZ0xffRfk0fqfkAo

    The 'cookie cutter' talents are these: http://www.wowhead.com/talent#bxI0zZZ0efbRfk0fqfkAo
    The 3 points in Shadow Affinity can be moved around to taste, but you need 3 points over in Shadow to get further down the tree.

    Glyphs are always Mind Flay, Dispersion and Inner Fire.

  17. #37

    Re: [Priest] Talents & Glyph Discussion, version 2

    So I do way too much arena. So I built gear sets and talent specs with all my extra points just for BG's. These are the specs

    So in BG's as a healer I run around with this Disc Healer and mana burn spec. I pick on all the other healer drain their mana because people do not know how to kill healers so I just drain all their mana, Kill steal with fast holy fires and smites, Tank rogues with Glyph of Inner fire, while still effectively healing like I would in my arena games. Wear your regular healing PvP set. Haste is good for this spec.

    http://talent.mmo-champion.com/?prie...7,8pdOeq,11723



    (Disclamer this is a smite spec so its only for fun) So you want to heal holy and you want to smite AT THE SAME TIME!!! WOOOOO Well this is the spec. You just blow people up. You wear 4 spirit pieces of PvP gear. Then enough pieces to get 4-5% hit. The rest is ALL HASTE GEAR and Haste gems. The trinket(s) I use for this is the on use Haste Trinket and the Engi Haste glove enchant. Use all your haste stuff and just watch people die. Do NOT underestimate holy nova spam for surviving rogues while killing people, if you have good haste gear. Or just like to pretend you’re an arcane mage, this is the spec. It heals well enough that you can keep 3 people alive no problem. It is a drink heavy spec but in BG’s I get a mage to make me water and I don’t care. I drink a lot, never die, and can mana burn a healer from 100% to 0 in 10 seconds. Or blow you up so fast because my smites are almost a 1 second cast, if not 1 second. You can even survive being bursted. Use all your haste cool downs and super heal yourself and run away with Shielding and Holy nova spams. The only thing that kills you is really like a 3 player lock down and you are by yourself. Without your PvP trinket 2 rogue stun locks a squelch and 3 fears and even a disc priest wouldn’t live through that. I suggest if you ever wanted to smite or just be awesome in a bg to try this spec. This spec is highly gear dependant, does not work as good if you’re using like hateful gear or blues or not so much haste gear/gems, but is fun anyways.

    http://talent.mmo-champion.com/?prie...I,UQaOeq,11723
    When people say "pls" just because its shorter then "please", I feel totally justified to say "No" just because its shorter then "Yes".

  18. #38

    Re: [Priest] Talents & Glyph Discussion, version 2

    Heh, looks like I have some updating to do, but a busy weekend to not do it on.

    Oh, and harky, I'm totally not getting that WIP in on time. Been wrapping my head around this.
    ~Former Priest/Guild Wars 2 Moderator~
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  19. #39

    Re: [Priest] Talents & Glyph Discussion, version 2

    Get'er done?

    Anyway, if I was to put up some 'current' specs for Holy here's what I'd put up:
    Standard Holy: www.wowhead.com/talent#bVcbhZfvzcbMqqhGcuAo:0dN
    -- Best all-around build for ICC.
    PoH-Heavy Holy: http://www.wowhead.com/talent#bqcbu0...bMqVhr0uAo:0dN
    -- Built for PoH heavy fights like Lich King, Sindragosa, Festergut, Putricide and Blood Queen.
    10-man Holy: www.wowhead.com/talent#bVcbuZfLtcbMqVhGfkAo:0dN
    -- Built for 2 healing 10 mans where slightly better tank healing is needed.

  20. #40

    Re: [Priest] Talents & Glyph Discussion, version 2

    About that PoH heavy style, what is 10% off the mana costs of instant casts going to do to your mana supply?

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