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  1. #421

    Re: Death Knights will tank as Blood in Cataclysm

    Just thinking about a tank who also heals himself while doing his normal attacks could be generating more threat than a tank who can not self heal. Doing high amounts of damgae (threat) + being in correct stance/presence/form (more threat) + healing (a little threat) = a lot of threat.

    The idea of self healing intrested me from a healers POV. In cata they said we will have to worry about mana more, with a tank who can heal himself/herself a bit maybe my mana concerns will be less.

    Just a side idea about how to make healing "more fun," Boost its threat. Then if a tank isn't geared enough (aka a stam stacking mana sponge) instead of having to worry about running out of mana before dps can kill the boss, you have to worry about pulling threat from the tank because you are having to heal him/her so much.

    That way healers would have to decide if they want to take talents that makes their threat less like http://www.wowhead.com/spell=14785 and http://www.wowhead.com/spell=17120 and http://www.wowhead.com/spell=29191 for tanks who are still getting geared, or just go for thoughtput talents for fear of pulling agro.

  2. #422

    Re: Death Knights will tank as Blood in Cataclysm

    oh my god... it' sux

    Blizzard wanted to simplify their work so they fucked up the whole DK tree...

    I really enjoy the Blood DK's DPS play style even if it not so efficient in icc HM (cuz of the -10% dps loss).
    Moreover it's the only spec with such a great DPS burst...

    Unholy's gameplay sux so much (waaaaaay toooo slooooooowww zzzzzzZZzzzzZZzzz...) that it's much more appropriated to switch this spec into tank's one (better mitigation etc.)

    With Shadowmourne (or any kind of 2H weapon), the only alternative will be Unholy.

    less possibilities = less fun = make the game so boring : everybody looks the same/have the same spec/template etc...

  3. #423

    Re: Death Knights will tank as Blood in Cataclysm

    Quote Originally Posted by Kamtali
    Like another comment already said, this change is so disappointing that it forced me to register and reply (and yes, I know I am crying on wrong gravestone as designers will hardly care).

    I am playing warcraft since it's beginning, mostly as tank even though I tried all other roles in raids as well (not all classes yet though). Death Knight is third tanking class I played, one I am playing now and certainly most fun.

    Playing warrior or druid tank were rather boring from the aspect that you do not really have any choice. Majority of talents are mandatory (mandatory to take or mandatory to skip) and you are locked there. Only true choice is between few talents that were situational. Concept of talents is worthless if you do not have choice. It is about same fun as just checking tank/dps option in menu.

    Playing death knight gave me choice between three trees for tanking (and few less usual hybrid builds), each having it's strengths and weaknesses, each bringing different benefits to raid (buffs/self heal/faster running for kiting...). I did tried them all and I like them all. This change promises to lock me back into one tree and I only have to hope (and doubt) that the new design will make talents more fun and really give us more true choices between talents.

    I saw the DK design as the way to go for other classes too. After designers pretty much removed hybrid builds from game in WotLK to simplify their work, I hoped perhaps this is the way how to bring more options for players again. Why the hell is subtlety not useable in raids? Why is 95% of PvP warriors arms and 80% PvE dps warriors fury? That is failure of design. That means people did not really have a choice (pick different class/spec example if you do not agree with these in particular).

    Argument that DK tanking is harder to balance than other trees (those where you can lock players in mandatory talents) is quite cheap if you consider that more than 10M players are paying the subscription every month. I am sure the "resources are limited", I know these phrases from business world... But with the income this game brings it is shame to even talk about higher costs of few designers that would have to be hired to do it properly.

    After trying many other classes in endgame, I was really happy with death knight. This change has potential to take this from me. Perhaps in context of other changes it will turn out good. Without that context it is big disappointment for me, one that may make me leave the class.

    P.S. And yeah, I know that warcraft is here for masses, not few enthusiasts. Who cares about my game experience when whole army of DKKillers, SlayerDKs, LOLDKLOLOLOLs will have their game nice and easy finally and will hapilly pay their subscriptions. That is the business decision and good one. It is my fault I fall in wrong category.
    The new mastery system is designed to give you a choice when speccing talents, so...

  4. #424
    The Patient Fixup's Avatar
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    Re: Death Knights will tank as Blood in Cataclysm

    1. Blood has always been my main spec for DPS so I'm pretty suicidle over that matter.

    2. Although Blood makes alot of sence to be used for tanking, Frost IMO makes even more sence with all the ice n all, being as ice cud strengthen* your armour and resist spells.

    Although I am gutted, I look forward to the changes and am not going to QQ about it (only to my fellow friends : ) :-X

    Its quite funny really. I think DW dk's will soon be made for unholy and 2H will be frost dps IMO would be best, as like said before unholy is all about speed. and something about Frost I cant put my finger on would make more sence to be focused on 2H. My point i'm supose to make is the fact my dps spec is Blood and my tank spec is Frost : so guessing my specs will be complete opisite to now :-\ yet I still look forward to seeing these changes and actually giving it a go before I make a decision to complain.

  5. #425

    Re: Death Knights will tank as Blood in Cataclysm

    Im happy with this change because im a blood tank and i think it is a much better tank spec than frost.
    For tanking: blood is probobly going to use 2H's but i think you will be able to go in to the frost tree a bit and go DW, if you want.
    For dps: unholy will be the 2H dps (If its any good) and frost the DW dps.
    This might not be what they do (its hard to tell at this point) i guess we will have to wait for the class discussion thing toomorow.

  6. #426
    The Patient Fixup's Avatar
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    Re: Death Knights will tank as Blood in Cataclysm

    Quote Originally Posted by Kamtali
    I saw the DK design as the way to go for other classes too. After designers pretty much removed hybrid builds from game in WotLK to simplify their work, I hoped perhaps this is the way how to bring more options for players again. Why the hell is subtlety not useable in raids? Why is 95% of PvP warriors arms and 80% PvE dps warriors fury? That is failure of design. That means people did not really have a choice (pick different class/spec example if you do not agree with these in particular).
    I agree with this part. but this would be very hard to make all classes meet their roles in all specs. but I think it would be nice if most specs would be a choice other than being the "best" spec for that sort of game play.

  7. #427

    Re: Death Knights will tank as Blood in Cataclysm

    Quote Originally Posted by Unahim
    The new mastery system is designed to give you a choice when speccing talents, so...
    Mastery system as I understand it from information we got is tied to talent tree. If all trees would still be viable for tanking, each could have different mastery bonuses and there would really be another interesting aspect as choice. But this change just makes it easy for designers, blood will get some "be hard to kill" like bonus and all tanks will be locked in it. Frost and Unholy trees will get different bonuses, probable something like "be badbum dps" and "be wraftful PvPer".

    Based on our gear the bonus will be lower or higher. I fail to see where is the choice.

  8. #428

    Re: Death Knights will tank as Blood in Cataclysm

    There're plenty enough Death Knights tanking as Blood, atleast, our Death Knights tank hardmodes as Blood. u.u
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  9. #429
    Scarab Lord Unholyground's Avatar
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    Re: Death Knights will tank as Blood in Cataclysm

    Haha suck it blood DPS, my frost is staying uber dps forever
    “What can be asserted without proof can be dismissed without proof.”

    -Christopher Hitchens, 13 April 1949 – 15 December 2011

  10. #430

    Re: Death Knights will tank as Blood in Cataclysm

    Now all tanks are the same, is it easier to balance? yes it is... but all classes dont need to work exactly the same, it takes the fun away.

  11. #431
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    Re: Death Knights will tank as Blood in Cataclysm

    Kind of a weird choice if you ask me. Frost has always been the iconic dk tanking spec (even though we can tank with all of them).
    Now I have to go and dual wield or become a pet class, both of wich I don''t want to. I really hope they will rethink this. :-\
    Why is the shield generator always outside the shield?

  12. #432
    Scarab Lord Unholyground's Avatar
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    Re: Death Knights will tank as Blood in Cataclysm

    Quote Originally Posted by deathleach
    Kind of a weird choice if you ask me. Frost has always been the iconic dk tanking spec (even though we can tank with all of them).
    Now I have to go and dual wield or become a pet class, both of wich I don''t want to. I really hope they will rethink this. :-\
    They wont, blood dps is almost as boring as pally dps anyways. Frost dps rapes faces and so does Unholy, they ar also changing the rune system and making some abilities have runic power AND rune requirements. Once the changes all come in I am sure all you nay Sayer set in your ways Blood DK will like the other trees
    “What can be asserted without proof can be dismissed without proof.”

    -Christopher Hitchens, 13 April 1949 – 15 December 2011

  13. #433

    Re: Death Knights will tank as Blood in Cataclysm

    As a non-DK, i don't understand why they don't make frost the new tanking tree. Well...Frost-presence..so Frost..well....you know.

    Anyhow, they would do themselves a favor by making all DK Tanks DW-Tanks for the sake of itemisation n stuff.
    Even though i understand that most of you prefer 2htanking.
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  14. #434
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    Re: Death Knights will tank as Blood in Cataclysm

    FFFFFFFFFFUUUUUUUUUU!!! :'(


    looks like i will have a new main in cataclysm
    I need a girl whose name doesn't end in .JPG

  15. #435
    Scarab Lord Unholyground's Avatar
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    Re: Death Knights will tank as Blood in Cataclysm

    Quote Originally Posted by Creutzfeld
    As a non-DK, i don't understand why they don't make frost the new tanking tree. Well...Frost-presence..so Frost..well....you know.

    Anyhow, they would do themselves a favor by making all DK Tanks DW-Tanks for the sake of itemization n stuff.
    Even though i understand that most of you prefer 2htanking.
    As it sits right now all 3 trees are decent at tanking, but blood excels at it. They see stuff they really like in the blood tree for tanking so they are going to beef them up so they don't have to worry about imbalances happening becasue of 3 tanking and 3 dps trees.
    “What can be asserted without proof can be dismissed without proof.”

    -Christopher Hitchens, 13 April 1949 – 15 December 2011

  16. #436

    Re: Death Knights will tank as Blood in Cataclysm

    Quote Originally Posted by Sollace
    Blade Barrier is a passive reduction not a cd
    Blood worms is frankly a terrible talent for tanks as it eats up aoe heals in fights with alot of aoe damage
    Tanks dont spec for Imp Blood Pres , it just isnt worth the talent points.
    Toughness , all tanks have this. I dont see the problem with moving it to blood as its a low tier talent anyway.
    UbA is likely to be changed to a dps cd for frost dks
    Howling blast is a vital frost spell and will NEVER be moved to blood , that would make no sense at all.
    On a Pale Horse is a pvp talent , plain and simple and its unlikely the magic damage reduction talents of unholy would be moved. It would be to much of a nerf to dk pvp.
    Besides those i pointed out , some of the on use cd's will be moved to blood.
    I am happy to learn more about tanking.

    I don't consider Blade Barrier to be passive but an ability, were if you mess up your rotation due to fears or movement it could fall off, but I do consider it tanking in nature, and that is why I included it in my list.

    You say Bloodworms is teribble for tanking because of them being healed in AOE damage fights. As it stands right now, who takes them? they don't do enough for DPS to take them. They also have very little life. In my experience they die in AOE fights, and wouldn't be alive to recieve an AOE heal. Even if they were taking AOE heals, that would still happen from DPS who took that talent, unless you are saying no PVE DK should take that talent.

    I only tank heroics on my blood DK tank, and love Imp Blood Presence. Sometimes I have healers who don't heal, and those 2 talent points have saved my life. In a raid with many healers you may be right.

    The reason I think Howling Blast could be moved to blood is because Frost tanks use it as their AOE snap threat ability. If mobs don't have diseases on them, Blood Boil just doesn't get agro back fast enough.

    If I were to make a UH DK tank right now, I would include On a Pale Horse in my build, as the talents currently stand because there are some fights were the boss fears you, and sometimes you don't have a shaman in your group to put down totems. That is why I also included it in a maximizing tanking tree that I listed. While it might be okay for DPS to run around feared, if the tank is being feared Ony will get out of position and hurt the raid.

    It seems like you had an issue with the magic defensive ablities from UH and the Snap AOE threat ablilty in Frost moving to Blood. If you were to make your ideal tanking tree, which ablilities would you move over?

  17. #437
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    Re: Death Knights will tank as Blood in Cataclysm

    Quote Originally Posted by Melonberry
    The few of us who enjoyed blood? Blood being the top dps spec?

    Hell, I know most people loved blood and hated using the other 2 specs when blood was subpar. Now that blood is viable again, they turn it into prot.

    Lol. DKs get screwed.
    blood is NOT the top dps spec sir


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  18. #438

    Re: Death Knights will tank as Blood in Cataclysm

    Quote Originally Posted by bio
    blood is NOT the top dps spec sir
    Please don't talk about things you don't understand.

  19. #439
    Scarab Lord Unholyground's Avatar
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    Re: Death Knights will tank as Blood in Cataclysm

    Quote Originally Posted by Sulf
    Please don't talk about things you don't understand.
    Hes right, frost DW is now the top DPS spec with the highest DPS potential, in any class that can DW, DW is always the highest DPS potential.
    “What can be asserted without proof can be dismissed without proof.”

    -Christopher Hitchens, 13 April 1949 – 15 December 2011

  20. #440

    Re: Death Knights will tank as Blood in Cataclysm

    Quote Originally Posted by Unholyground
    Hes right, frost DW is now the top DPS spec with the highest DPS potential, in any class that can DW, DW is always the highest DPS potential.
    Do you actually have any data to back up you're claim?

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