Old Gods are terrible

[Grammar]

Quoting WC3 is pointless. I seriously doubt that Blizzard (hell, anyone for that matter) can see so far into far into the future that they can maintain a storyline for 5 years without any plot-holes. Most 30 minute television shows cant hold a plot without holes in the storyline.

That being said, revenants are elementals, and Frostmourne was guarded by Death revenants. Death Revenant further implies a connection to old gods, especially yogg'saron. If that's the case, then as far as I'm concerned, the Death Revenant would encourage Arthas to take the sword, seeing as it would encourage a Burning Legion invasion, and the Old Gods have been known to incite Burning Legion attacks. Seems like a major inconsistency, and thus a plothole to me.

Anyways, my point is that i don't think it is a good idea to rely on blizzard for a consistent story, especially when you go as far back as WC3, and then try to discern meanings from the fact that Frostmourne was guarded by elementals. Blizzard is fallible, and a perfect storyline that has been prolonged as long as it has is beyond unreasonable.

[Twidis]

well, only because they played a major part in it doesn't mean they were the ones pulling the strings from this point of view, i can agree that they were to an extent manipulated, or at the very least aware of the cause of actions. and now that i think back to wc3, there were dreadlords aiding arthas when he had conquered lordaeron. however, they tried to get rid of him about the same time the lich king called for him.

Mhm, i know, all im saying is that giving the sword to arthas was the plan from the start, they just didn't expect the lich king had power of the sword after being separated from it, that was the flaw in their plan, they thought the lich king contained.
Once arthas got the sword malganis was talking with him as being in the same side, so that the lich king whispered to arthas to not tell malganis that he could hear him, which proves that they werent expecting that and was part of the lich king's plan.
Who else would put the sword there, and how would malganis know the sword was in northrend and exactly where, so he could lure arthas to it?

They later on started to get suspicious on arthas because he was far too sucessful, so started to think he had aid and something was wrong, but if you recall it wasnt untill arthas openly started killing them that they realised about the betrayal, they worked with him after malganis was slain in the whole undead campaign, while he killed malganis with the sword in the human campaign if i recall correctly? might be messing up now. which would mean they didnt even know about that betrayal, but they knew he would be in their side, with the sword in his hands.

Quoting WC3 is pointless. I seriously doubt that Blizzard (hell, anyone for that matter) can see so far into far into the future that they can maintain a storyline for 5 years without any plot-holes. Most 30 minute television shows cant hold a plot without holes in the storyline.

Indeed, what im saying aswell thus repeating myself on the whole "plot hole", but why suddenly its thought otherwise btw? did i miss something?

[Haven]

Anyone else feel like the old gods are a cop out on blizz's part? I mean sure the forces behind most of Lovecraft's stories make good for "ultimate evils" but I just feel like blizz carbon copied them for the most part, and I mean in spirit not so much form, although there are similarities.

I like my villains to have character, ya know? Have some goals, be selfish, annihilate a group of people, rob sw bank, capture the princess, whatever. Not just be hell bent on the destruction of civilization/life as we know it.

I'm hoping blizz gives us a relatable villain sometime in the future, one who isn't corrupted by old gods (or sargeras). I think somebody molded after your classic super hero/james bond type villains would be really neat to see. Oh and I'm talking about a major baddie, not just some ho-hum pushover like van cleef.

The best thing about Lovecraftian evil was that its intentions simply didn't involve mankind. The Old Gods and other entities just didn't care about humans - but when humans discovered Old Gods, they dug further and went insane. Because the whole thing was in that Old Gods were alien to an incredible degree - you couldn't understand them, couldn't reason with them, couldn't predict them - and their power was so great that their very presence was shattering your mind. You can't really say they're evil - they don't want you dead or insane, but if you just get into their way... It's like with poisonous insects. You can never domesticate them, because of how primitive they are.

Blizzard's Old Gods are almost a copypaste from Lovecraft. You can't say that Silithids or Forgotten Ones are evil. They simply infestate and devour what they see, and they don't care whether it is good or bad. A mistake on Blizzard's part was giving Qiraji voices so that we could understand them, that disrupted the feel.

[Morgoth_hr]

There are five old gods under the earth, but 1 is in the the maelstrom. He is likely the most powerfull of them all

Well...doh! But that wasn't my question.
The question is: Are we sure there is only 1 OG in Maelstrom? If so why is he talking in plural?

[Twidis]

I thought the corruption of sargeras was due to interaction with nathreiziem. Death wing - Neltharion - is the one driven insane by the old gods

Ye i know, but ever heard the old saying "if you cant defeat them, join them"?
nathreiziem being immortal he must have gotten pretty pissed about it and decided to just eradicate all life instead of the slow methodical way of his other companions and just get done with it before it got out of hand, and instead of fighting them he just asked them to join him, i dont think they were the corruptors at all.

But then again, as i said, that is my own theory that i can up while taking a dump while thinking about an old post about the super weapon locked in uldum, which someone made a connection between it and the water generation device that azshara had, which made me think about why would the titans be afraid of a device that creates water up to locking it away, and bam, water = organic life (around this time the dumb hit the water as well so you know, splatter) which made me wonder about it a bit more, so the theory is not polished at all and exists for like a week or so.
Give me time :P

Edit: Now that i think of it, hmm yes, maybe they were the corrupters, they are master manipulators yes? so many seeing how sargeras goal was to keep the old god's corruption at bay (organic life) they just manipulated him using some logical argument (you know how robots and logic twists work right) into making him think his way was far too slow to actually fight old god corruption effectively, so they offered their help and suggested into creating a legion of corrupted life forms to destroy life instead, they would benefict from it (they looove souls yes, that would give them plenty of access to it) so it was more of a way to stop being bothered by the damn titan and get help and access to worlds they wouldnt otherwise, plus a lot of power, they clearly powertrip easly

[Liero]

Well...doh! But that wasn't my question.
The question is: Are we sure there is only 1 OG in Maelstrom? If so why is he talking in plural?

Could be because the remaining old gods (i think there are 2 alive, if you count the one in keepers grove) have been planning something together.
Or it could be because he belives he's royal and should be adressed as such

[Whyte]

Anarchy is the absence of government or hierarchy, social statuses and the sorts (good thing), not the absence of rules(bad thing), they are not the same thing :P
Besides, it balances itself out, in a society where you are free to do whatever you wish as long you don't harm others, anyone who does harm someone gets linched and killed off in a public display and likely very slowly, im sure crime rates would be lower.
Not to speak most social injustices come from the existence of a government in the first place that creates gaps between people, while teens may blow shit up and break stuff for the kicks of it, you can be sure that almost no one would commit a serious crime if it werent for need of doing it, most thrill-crimes are small time shit.
Most criminality is a result of a social/cultural problem to start with.

And that is why anarchy as a government type (absence of one) in theory is the best kind possible (true democracy) its not really possible unless our whole culture and education system changed radically, removing the whole culture of competition over cooperation where we are pitied against eachother like pitdogs, all social problems are the symptoms of a bad society.

Anyway thats offtopic and not really something to talk in a games forum :P

This guy. This guy I'm tellin ya, gets a praise from me!
I was just about to come deliver some long-awaited teaching about what anarchy is and how it's perceived so very wrong these days.

Speaking of these days, every time I see an Old God topic on the front page I immediately dive into it to see what Dark Side has to say to it :P

[nalle]

Old gods rule!

Ancient pure evil that manipulates others for the own winnings, how can you not like it, it's the perfect *bad guy* in a game like this

[Albert the fish]

The Old Gods are not evil.
The Old Gods are chaos incarnate.
Evil is a sissy compared to chaos.

[The Madgod]

Could be because the remaining old gods (i think there are 2 alive, if you count the one in keepers grove) have been planning something together.
Or it could be because he belives he's royal and should be adressed as such

essentiially the old gods did plan something. I believe that whereve they were imprisioned exists in a different timespace than Azeroth, allowing them to effectively go back in time, if they regain enough of their strength, because they didn't do this in the origional timeline. The most the old gods did in the origional timeline of the war of the ancients was to make deathwing go insane. The newer one only started after the third war.

to clarify, two separate timelines; an old god timeline, and the azerothian time line. At the time of the origional War of the Ancients, the old gods onlyt made deathwing insane. Post third war, the old gods in their timeline had the strength enough to grope around in the azerothian timeline, and mess with the war of the ancients, planning to escape from their prision. They were foiled, and now they cannot do it again for some time.

timeline based theories are really annoying because of the relative and murky topic of time itself, so this is the best i can do to explain it : /

[MikeBogina]

essentiially the old gods did plan something. I believe that whereve they were imprisioned exists in a different timespace than Azeroth, allowing them to effectively go back in time, if they regain enough of their strength, because they didn't do this in the origional timeline. The most the old gods did in the origional timeline of the war of the ancients was to make deathwing go insane. The newer one only started after the third war.

to clarify, two separate timelines; an old god timeline, and the azerothian time line. At the time of the origional War of the Ancients, the old gods onlyt made deathwing insane. Post third war, the old gods in their timeline had the strength enough to grope around in the azerothian timeline, and mess with the war of the ancients, planning to escape from their prision. They were foiled, and now they cannot do it again for some time.

timeline based theories are really annoying because of the relative and murky topic of time itself, so this is the best i can do to explain it : /

To say the Old Gods physical prison is in a different time line is inaccurate. Do they have powers to alter time? Not sure, but they seem to be powerful enough to effect any realm of existence (Exp: Emerald Dream) In the War of the Ancients, the attacked Nozdormu and made him send back rhonin, krasus and brox. That alone changed the events following, but not the Demon soul. The corrupting of Deathwing and the creation of the Demon soul was part of the original story. The main thing they were achieving was preventing nozdormu from helping.

And being able to not do this again for some time? no other opportunity presented itself for some time. The only reason their popping up now is the fact that wow takes place at this time period. If wow took place during the Horde invasion, they'd be releasing then instead or if wow never happen for another 20 years in timeline, then thats when they'd be releasing.

[MikeBogina]

For the theory of the Old Gods behind Frostmourne, really?? The writing was there as a warning and nothing more at the time. Not all elements are evil, and the Frost Revanent(however you spell it) is by far the best example of this. He tells Arthas, in his last moments that hes trying to protect him from it. Elements/spirits and ancients are usually depicted as the most knowledgeable, thats why shamans go to them to see the future. The fact that theres saronite in the cave means little since theres Saronite everywhere, pit of saron, has nothing to do w/ Yoggsaron or any faceless ones/elementals.

[Azahel]

For the theory of the Old Gods behind Frostmourne, really?? The writing was there as a warning and nothing more at the time. Not all elements are evil, and the Frost Revanent(however you spell it) is by far the best example of this. He tells Arthas, in his last moments that hes trying to protect him from it. Elements/spirits and ancients are usually depicted as the most knowledgeable, thats why shamans go to them to see the future. The fact that theres saronite in the cave means little since theres Saronite everywhere, pit of saron, has nothing to do w/ Yoggsaron or any faceless ones/elementals.

Man, there's saronite nods everywhere, fine, but have you ever seen such a big concentration of non usable saronite everywhere? No, there are a few places like this, one of them is the frostmoune cavern... You can't even find a single saronite ore down there...
And what makes you really believe that pit of saron has nothing to do with yoggy?
They deep beneath, watching, plotting and waiting... We are all pawns in a way or another...
Bow down before the god of Death!

[MikeBogina]

Man, there's saronite nods everywhere, fine, but have you ever seen such a big concentration of non usable saronite everywhere? No, there are a few places like this, one of them is the frostmoune cavern... You can't even find a single saronite ore down there...
And what makes you really believe that pit of saron has nothing to do with yoggy?
They deep beneath, watching, plotting and waiting... We are all pawns in a way or another...
Bow down before the god of Death!

Well one, i dont recall a saronite node in the pit of saron, those guys in there didnt seem affected by it :P

[Dark Side]

Well one, i dont recall a saronite node in the pit of saron, those guys in there didnt seem affected by it :P

There are nodes in close proximity, i.e. vezax room.

[Irvine]

Im a fan of the old gods as well, their connection to lovecraft's creations appeals me.

Having said that i have my own little theory on the whole Old God(Yogg) - Arthas(Lich King) connection.

The source of his corruption lies with Kil'Jaeden, he sent the old Lich King to Azeroth to create a big undead army for the Legion to conquer Azeroth for them to set foot in the world, this is all old news.
However somewhere along the path things started to get a bit out of control for KJ.

Ner'zhul started a personal uprising against KJ and the legion and started to come up with a way where he could escape his icy prison, the solution was Arthas, this is where the connection starts according to me, it is possible Ner'zhul started to hear the voice of Yogg at this point or before, Yogg telling ner'zhul that he can become more powerfull than Kil'Jaeden and anyone else currently present on Azeroth (Let's face it was it not for his arrogance in the end he could have us all wiped in a second with the power he is showing now in ICC)

The plague in Lordaeron had an effective role in the start of the corruption of Arthas, seeing his people die while he could do nothing about it drove him over the edge of insanity, he lost all reason and started to kill his own people in order to save them from an undead afterlife, he was eventually driven to Northrend to not only get his revenge on Mal'Ganis but also reclaim the blade that was ment for him.

Now lets take a look into Frostmourne, a blade created by the Dreadlords indeed, but the fact that it is on a pedestal with the writings on the elemental language, elementals that are under control of the old gods seems a bit unLegion like and this is where we can see the first hints of an old god being involved, what goal could Yogg-Saron achieve with the Lich King reign supreme over Azeroth? Choas!

Chaos being the thing the old gods want to achieve according to Dark Side, the undead would swarm over azeroth like locusts as Uther said in HoR wouldnt it be without the tiny bit of humanity left in Arthas, now also the fact that saronite is present in the frostmourne cave gives it all the more reason to beleive Yogg-Saron plays a big part in all this, Frostmourne was meant for one person and one person only to carry and that person was Arthas, the person that would merge with Ner'zhul and become the Lich King that would reign chaos on Azeroth. Thats why there is the language of the elementals on the pedestal because the revenants of Death (more clues for yogg's involvement) placed it there and saw to it that nobody but Arthas would claim Frostmourne.

Frostmourne sucked the soul from Arthas turning him into the puppet he was in the end and Yogg-Saron being the puppeteer directly or inderectly i leave this open for discussion.
Did Ner'zhul expect Arthas betraying him and claim the Lich King for his own? perhaps
Did Yogg-Saron intended it? Most certainly

Arthas is more easily corrupted than Ner'zhul in the end, Yes Ner'zhul listened to Yogg in order to escape his prison but NZ outsmarted the Legion so he had and might still have a trick or two up his sleeve to deal with Yogg.
Even Blizzard gave a hint that Ner'zhul is still around as they have a big story to tell about him, also the fact Bolvar sound pretty much like an orc at the end and telling Tirion to leave this place and never return sound to me that Ner'zhul got what he wanted and wants to set his wheels in motion in peace.

This has turned into quite a long post and is perhaps nowhere near the actual Topic.
but...

TLR version..... The Old God(s) play a major part in this expansion AND the entire WC3:TFT game with in my opinion being the entity being behind the perhaps biggest storyline in Warcraft and for that in my eyes the Old Gods are far from terrible.

[darkriver41]

It's okay to carbon-copy something from Lovecraft because its badassery cancels out the unoriginality.