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  1. #21

    Re: Disc PVE PW:S or PoH Glyph?

    Hi, that's nice. Your other healers helped you with tank heals substantially. Something they wouldn't need to do for a Shaman, Druid, or Paladin. Explain to me how you solo tank healed Festergut, Putricide, Marrowgar, Blood Queen, Sindragosa, Lich King, or Blood Princes. Also I'd love to see a log because that's extremely impressive. Though uh, you won't show me a log, because it will show the other healers helping you a lot on tanks.

    Quote Originally Posted by Dharmabhum
    I don't want to derail or hijack the thread, but I would take issue with "the issue is that Disc is such a bad tank healer". I would agree that disc as a tank healer might not be the norm, and that's even more true if you're looking at it from a 25 perspective. But to say that disc isn't tank heals would contradict what many disc priests do and do well.
    They're bad tank healers primarily because they have substantially lower single target throughput than any of the other healing classes. Only Holy is lower. When looking at tank heals you want to look at who can maintain the highest throughput for the longest. Paladin and Druid can both put out extremely high HPS for extremely long periods of time on multiple tanks. Shaman are lower HPS than Paladin and Druid, but not by a large amount. The main issue with Shaman MT healers is they can't suitably keep two tanks alive at once through very high damage. Disc puts out less still, but also has trouble switching like Shaman. Holy lags behind just because... well, Holy lags behind. Disc and Holy are getting a class overhaul in Cata for this exact reason, all the other healing classes destroy them on tank heals.

    If you're worse than all other healers on tanks, but competitive on raid heals then it's a pretty bad decision to be used as a tank healer. Disc is absolutely great at raid healing, then switching to tanks to help with burst damage on them. Penance is actually totally overpowered for that, but as a dedicated tank healer? No, sorry, we really are bad. It sucks because I used to love being our primary tank healer as Disc. They're fixing it in Cataclysm though, which makes me extremely happy.

    As far as PoH. Try it. You'll be surprised how much healing it puts out, even as Disc.

  2. #22

    Re: Disc PVE PW:S or PoH Glyph?

    Quote Originally Posted by harky
    If you're worse than all other healers on tanks, but competitive on raid heals then it's a pretty bad decision to be used as a tank healer. Disc is absolutely great at raid healing, then switching to tanks to help with burst damage on them. Penance is actually totally overpowered for that, but as a dedicated tank healer? No, sorry, we really are bad. It sucks because I used to love being our primary tank healer as Disc. They're fixing it in Cataclysm though, which makes me extremely happy.
    About penance, if it was a 10s base CD like it was before 3.1, how much of a help would that be for tank healing?

  3. #23

    Re: Disc PVE PW:S or PoH Glyph?

    Honestly? Not enough. Without massive amount of haste for Greater Heal you can't really count on being able to keep tanks up through high damage fights with any consistency without help. Having the lower cooldown would reduce the risk a lot, but it's just not enough. If Penance was reduce to around a 5 second cooldown (talented and glyphed to 5), then it would probably do the trick, but even then there's a risk.

    The problem isn't Penance, it's the lulls between Penance casts. Flash Heal puts out extremely weak HPS even with DA included, which actually can't be properly included. Still even with it included Flash Heal is just too weak. You're looking at a spell that is just a little bit faster than Holy Light... but heals for around half as much even before Beacon is considered. It's the same cast time as Nourish, but Nourish hits harder and Druids have HoTs rolling. On top of that? Nourish is actually faster than most Disc Priests' Flash Heal if they're both spamming. The other classes just don't have lulls in healing like Disc and having one overpowering heal doesn't fix that, just makes it more obvious.

    What I'd actually love to see? Make Greater Heal suck for Disc in Cataclysm and take the cooldown off Penance entirely. Just make it Discipline's Greater Heal.

  4. #24
    I am Murloc! Fenixdown's Avatar
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    Re: Disc PVE PW:S or PoH Glyph?

    Quote Originally Posted by harky
    Hi, that's nice. Your other healers helped you with tank heals substantially. Something they wouldn't need to do for a Shaman, Druid, or Paladin. Explain to me how you solo tank healed Festergut, Putricide, Marrowgar, Blood Queen, Sindragosa, Lich King, or Blood Princes. Also I'd love to see a log because that's extremely impressive. Though uh, you won't show me a log, because it will show the other healers helping you a lot on tanks.

    I don't keep logs, or I would show you one. And not only do I solo heal tanks on a few of the encounters, I solo heal TWO tanks on Blood Princes.

    It's called being a good healer and knowing what you're doing. Just because you know alot of bad disc priests that can't heal themselves out of a wet paper bag doesn't mean we all have the IQ equivalent of gnats.

    Also, I never claimed to solo tank heal every encounter. I would say it's limited to the following encoutners.

    Marrowgar
    Saurfang
    Rotface
    Blood Princes (two tanks)

    That would probably be it. And, no, nobody "helped me substantially". Don't talk to people like they're retarded players just because you seem to always be surrounded by them. Not everyone is completely incapable of pulling their own weight it a raid. Some of us actually do know what the hell we're doing. Shocking, I know.

    But let me guess. Because Elitist Jerks says it's true, you must believe it. Because they can't be wrong, no sir.

    Big numbers =/= better tank healers. When you're capable of preventing about 33-40% of the total incoming damage that those other healers would have to try and blast through with no mitigation ability, then yeah. Your "throughput" says A is better than B. Next time, try using stat C to measure how good a healer is. It's called effective healing + absorbs. And I even blow paladins out of the water in that stat.



  5. #25

    Re: Disc PVE PW:S or PoH Glyph?

    Yes, discs CAN tank heal. However, they're not good at it compared to (certainly) paladins and (probably) shaman. Let's say you're some kind of superdisc whose flash hits for 7k and crits for ~13.5k (including aegis) 50% of the time. Your average heal is 10.25k. A paladin with your gear level is going to hit for more than that with cast time a fraction of a second longer, on two targets, with half of it splashed to nearby melee, with better regen than you. Yes you have penance and PW:S for spikes, but your bread-and-butter heal is flash.

    If you're just doing 10mans then sure, you can get maybe get away with having a disc tank heal, but it's simply not making good use of the class. Fenixdown I would like to see evidence that you solo healed all those encounters ('solo tank healing' makes no sense since raid damage is minimal so it's very likely the other healer was helping you).

    On-topic: PW:S, Penance, PoH. No point in anything else.

  6. #26

    Re: Disc PVE PW:S or PoH Glyph?

    Quote Originally Posted by Fenixdown
    Also, I never claimed to solo tank heal every encounter. I would say it's limited to the following encoutners.

    Marrowgar
    Saurfang
    Rotface
    Blood Princes (two tanks)
    No, you summed that up pretty well. Holy can solo tank heal on 3 of those, so uh... what's your point. You can't solo tank heal ICC, you can solo tank heal a few select fights. I'd bet money you can solo tank heal on Gunship and Deathwhisper as well though.

    And for the record, I do include absorbs when calculating potential HPS as Disc. It's still not remotely close. You can put out 7-8k HPS + ~1.5k absorbs per second when tank healing, which is fine, but the other healing classes can put out 15k+ raw HPS. You need to be at a point where you can run Greater Heal rotations dropping Flash Heal entirely for Disc to catch up to Resto Shaman. Problem is Resto Shaman still aren't exactly close to Resto Druids, or Holy Paladins on throughput.

    The difference is this. You can solo tank heal those four fights, but a Holy Paladin can solo heal Festergut. Not solo tank heal, but actually tank heal and have enough excess healing to cover the raid as well. It's not a small gap, it's a very large gap in throughput.

  7. #27

    Re: Disc PVE PW:S or PoH Glyph?

    Ill give you a reason why Power Word: Shield

    If it crits for 2400 wich happens in ICC ez you get a 720absorb shield from Divine Agis extra
    So that glyph on crit adds an extra 3120 "healing value" on shield crits

    Glyphs for Disc: Penance, PW:Shield and third is situational: Renew/Flash/Dispell/PoH depending on encounter

    EDIT: You might ask why the fuck dispell?! It was pretty handy on Yog+1 and it crits also, thus adding a divine agis

  8. #28
    Fluffy Kitten Ultima's Avatar
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    Re: Disc PVE PW:S or PoH Glyph?

    PW:Shield and Penance are a must. The other is up to you, but I would suggest Prayer of Healing unless you like to cast Flash Heal and oom (while not an advised healing method, what works...works).

    Quote Originally Posted by Fenixdown
    Also, I never claimed to solo tank heal every encounter. I would say it's limited to the following encoutners.
    Quote Originally Posted by Fenixdown
    I can solo tank heal ICC10.

    Thanks for telling me I can't.
    When speaking of an instance as a whole, one would generally think that would encompass every boss inside the instance, otherwise you are solo tank healing a building.

    Disc cannot and should not main tank heal, 10 or 25. The idea is from the early days of Naxxrammas (where apparently there was damage, but I don't remember any) and maybe Ulduar, this is the case no longer. However, people seem to think we have the ability to bubble on as it breaks and do not know what Weakened Soul is since we are "OP at tank healing".

    I've stopped doing 10 man raids since I'm asked to tank heal as Disc and I do not enjoy it or the extreme pressure of 2 healing hardmodes as the tank healer, I don't like it : - (
    I heal in the Arena
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  9. #29

    Re: Disc PVE PW:S or PoH Glyph?

    Quote Originally Posted by Ultima
    When speaking of an instance as a whole, one would generally think that would encompass every boss inside the instance, otherwise you are solo tank healing a building.
    But have you seen those battlements? What a tank!

  10. #30
    Fluffy Kitten Ultima's Avatar
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    Re: Disc PVE PW:S or PoH Glyph?

    What a healer ;o
    I heal in the Arena
    Retired Moderator - Priest and PvP
    You can follow me @UltimaMMO_C

  11. #31

    Re: Disc PVE PW:S or PoH Glyph?

    It's kinda been derailed since topic is easy answer of PWS always and PoH is your optional.

    I'll continue with the derailing however.

    10man without a holy paladin disc is the best to focus tank healing.
    This is not to say you solo tank heal but given a shaman + druid + disc they all contribute to tank healing, the other 2 however contribute more passive +tank healing while raid healing than disc.

    G-heal hits 12k+ non crit, it's delivery is just slower.

    Did normal fester a few weeks ago, paladin died to blight, solo healed through his less empowered hits after that fine.


    PS. Holy nova +glyph is great if can train your use and positioning of it in a lot of icc10 fights.

  12. #32

    Re: Disc PVE PW:S or PoH Glyph?

    Glyph of PW:S is anywhere between 5% to 10% of my healing depending on the fight. I would say that's a pretty damn good glyph.

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