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  1. #41

    Re: Druid - Cataclysm Preview Compilation

    Quote Originally Posted by Wotch
    And why make feral "rotation" even easier. It is already one of the easiest rotations out there. What is difficult about maintaining 1 buff roughly every 30 seconds 1 bleed every 15 and 1 every 30? There is so much down time waiting for energy Regen that thinking about it doesn't even take any effort. Add thrash as a cat ability similar to how there is a swipe and mangle for bear and a swipe and mangle for cat. another button to hit instead of just using shred as fast as possible for a 15 second interval would be nice.
    You best be trollin, If not feel free to provide a WoL of you keeping close to 100% uptimes on your SR and Bleeds if its that easy to keep them all up.

  2. #42

    Re: Druid - Cataclysm Preview Compilation

    Quote Originally Posted by Fasc
    Have fun mashing AB/AM as a Mage or "facerolling" as a Retribution Paladin or whatever class you think requires more attention and "skill"

    The way you break it down even the Enhancement Shaman and Shadow Priests (the only other classes with as many buttons to manage or more to Feral) are JUST watching a few timers and CDs and waiting around for them to pop up.
    If you really think about it that is all you are doing during a feral "rotation" shredding to 4/5 combos for savage roar and shredding to 5 for rip and occasionally throwing in a rake and a ferocious bite. That is all that happens a whole 5 buttons to press with 2 of them essentially on half minute CD's

    I would love to see some proc based abilities or something to add some dynamics to the rotation. Possibly something along the lines of when ever rip crits you have a 15% chance for thrash to become available in cat form.
    Or along the same lines having thrash become available in cat form but rather than adding a third bleed it adds x% of the duration of rip and/or rake back onto the target.

  3. #43

    Re: Druid - Cataclysm Preview Compilation

    Quote Originally Posted by Núneth
    I´m really excited about the changes to druids and I can´t really see why some people are crying their eyes out. So what if tree of life becomes a cooldown? We´ll be able to dps and stuff when no one is taking damage without having to pop out of form all the time. Blizzard has been working on this game a long time now and I would be very surprised if they made changes that made the game less fun for us. Wait til the changes go live, try them out and if you still dont like them, let the developers know. Dont start the mindless QQ already
    I lol-ed so hard that i think i wet myself. seriously. Mage's, warriors, locks, dk have not been fucked over and buffed again?
    What are you talking about. dps when no one is getting hit. Roll a dps if you want to dps. What other healer class dps-es? If and when they are doing it they are doing it in trivial instances. So what about moonkin form, feral forms, Why not remove those as well. If you want to show your gear or whatever silly reason, go play another class.

    The whole concept/mindset at there end isn't clear. Someone came up with the idea and sold it and they are defending it at all cost. Tell me:
    what healer switches form to give a big boost in healing performances? What are they trying to do. So heal imba for 30s and than fall back to normal healing. So i have to time it when extra healing is going to be needed? Making it so that all raids are going to need a druid healer to heal cause every 3 mins insane dmg is going to befall the tank only a druid in tree of life form can take care of ?? Result what happend to bring te player not the class? There is no healer class that heals like this.

    This is devs at best keep yourrself at work. You don't want to create a perfect game where you could be out of a job when its done. No forcefully introduce anomalies to have to fix them later.

    After the storm of complaints im happy they are already considering the glyph idea.

    So whats next remove shadow form cause maybe a shadow priest wants to heal and show there armor instead of the blackness. fck u blizz.


  4. #44

    Re: Druid - Cataclysm Preview Compilation

    Quote Originally Posted by Wotch
    If there are no "hardmodes" then why are there under 400 guilds in the world working on heroic LK?
    As you've been told, there are no hardmodes...

    Quote Originally Posted by Wotch
    Honestly what the is the point of a CD for a druid when every GC is taken anyways and not using a GC to heal is potentially a raid death. CD's are all but useless when not healing someone every second can result in the death of that person.
    True, sustained healing output is far more important than anything else in pve, but it rather depends on what the ToL CD will be. They haven't said anything about exactly what it will be. Given that Cataclysm will involve some serious mana management (sounds like costs for all spells will go up), all heals healing for significantly less compared to player's health pools and being required to use a lot more of our healing spells, the ToL CD could be something like simply improving our mana regen for xx seconds. No one knows, since Blizzard hasn't said what active ToL CD will be.

    Quote Originally Posted by Wotch
    Tree of life should stay the way it is now. A healer shouldn't ever be dpsing in any situation. I believe that trading off offensive abilities to improve healing was a great mechanic and is it really that hard to pop out of form to dps if you really want to?
    Blizzard disagree about the effectiveness of the form concept for healers. They want to give both healers and tanks as much utility as possible to make them viable and easier to balance in pvp. Giving all utilities to a form defeats the whole point of a form (form=improved specialisation for decreased utility). For pve, all they need to do is ensure that all the healing specs have a decently high sustained healing output. This, compared to pvp, is simple and does not require a fixed form. It can be done in caster form just like priests/shamans/paladins.

    Quote Originally Posted by Wotch
    If cataclysm raiding is even remotely similar to wrath wasting time by switching to a new form will be more of a hindrance imo. if they really want to change it to a CD based effect do something more like what they are doing with priests (karma or whatever) where when you cast a certain combination of spells you transform into the tree and it resets all active hots.
    Blizzard said that ToL will be a warlock-like Metamorphisis CD. This lasts for 30s and has a 3minute cooldown. In other words, ToL is moving well away from being a form - you will only be able to pop it for a short while. Given that it is a CD, it will likely only buff and come with no restrictions of any sort. Again, without a lot more detail about what the ToL will do, speculating about any "hindrance" seems futile.

    Quote Originally Posted by Wotch
    Also changing up the healing style from hots to a larger focus on nourish and god forbid healing touch? That is just wrong. since vanilla hots have been the staple of druid healing. Don't take that away.
    Ghostcrawler commented that they are disappointed that so many druids are happy to use just two spells (Rejuvenation + Wild Growth) to top healing meters throughout WotLK when resto. druids had the most healing spells of all the class specs. The Cataclysm druid preview post said that there will be more of a distinction between healing and HoT healing and we will be using more of our spells. That does not mean that druids are forced to be direct healers. It may be simply that via talents if you or other druids do use the direct healing spells, it makes your HoTs more effective. Though I do agree, if by some incredible turnaround or oversight by the devs, the talents force us to use Nourish/HT like a poor man's Holy Paladin - THEN I'd go crazy!

    Quote Originally Posted by Wotch
    Being balanced around always being in one form is how it should remain. A CD to shift into a new form to boost healing is an unnecessary and will probably be rarely used in most in game content.
    Did you not read the followup blue posts to the Cataclysm druid preview post? They said that druid healers will be balanced only in caster form. The ToL CD will just be an active boost and is not part of the core balancing of healers. In other words, we are going to be balanced around one form - its just that it will be caster form instead of ToL form. The passive abilities ToL gives now will be rolled up either in the overall class stats or split up in the talents.

    Quote Originally Posted by Wotch
    And why make feral "rotation" even easier. It is already one of the easiest rotations out there. What is difficult about maintaining 1 buff roughly every 30 seconds 1 bleed every 15 and 1 every 30? There is so much down time waiting for energy Regen that thinking about it doesn't even take any effort. Add thrash as a cat ability similar to how there is a swipe and mangle for bear and a swipe and mangle for cat. another button to hit instead of just using shred as fast as possible for a 15 second interval would be nice.
    I'm not a feral cat. However, from my past serious attempts at topping damage meters as a feral cat, I can assure you the feral rotation is far from easy. It's arguably by far the most difficult rotation, or at the very least the most unforgiving rotation in the game. This is the core cat rotation:

    Code:
    Keep Savage Roar up 100% (14-34s duration)
    Keep Mangle up 100% (was 12s duration, now 1m)
    Keep Rake up 100% (9s duration, had overwriting problems)
    Keep 5 CP Rip up as much as possible (16-22s duration)
    Shred 3 times per Rip
    Spend all clearcasting procs on Shred unless Mangle is down
    This is not even taking into account your and other bleeds on the target, manglebots, Ferocious Bite overkill, BloodLust and TF timing, and desyncing Roar with rip. It's a seriously tough and unforgiving rotation. You lose out in even a little of the above, especially Shred or Savage Roar, and you can watch your dps go bye-bye! Only if you've ever consistently topped 25-man raid dps meters do you get the luxury of calling feral cat dps "easy" - and I'm certain if you ever had, you never would call it easy. Even Blizzard call it the "John [FUCKING] Madden" rotation!

    Quote Originally Posted by Wotch
    Guess this means I will be heading back to a class with a real rotation and useful core abilities
    Wow....um, ok. In terms of "real rotation" what class would that be, then?

  5. #45

    Re: Druid - Cataclysm Preview Compilation

    John Madden crowd?

    Sig by: khatsoo

  6. #46

    Re: Druid - Cataclysm Preview Compilation

    Heroic=hardmode. It's even been referred as such by blues, and I'm not sure why you'd argue such a silly point.

    There's many cases of expected burst damage, and in cata people are going to have more health. Blizzard is trying to move away from killing people in the space of 2 GCDs, more so with tanks but there was talk about everyone else too.

    Coupling that with what blizzard said about having to use more of our spells you could speculate that cata boss fights will put out more damage than rejuv can deal with effectively.

    Since everyone seems to apply the cata changes to current content, imagine nobody in the raid had less than 40k health, with the tanks at 60k. The boss could aoe for 30k occasionally, rejuv would help heal some of this but you would likely want more.

  7. #47

    Re: Druid - Cataclysm Preview Compilation

    You have all missed a very important problem for their reason behind changing tree of life to a cooldown..you can put moonfire on your bar and cast when in tree form..it simply takes you out.the mana regen nerf added to the already HUGE nerf to lifebloom, clearcasting and innervate, you wont have any mana at all in anything that takes longer than 3 min. With the decrease overall in mana regen and heals, only viable healers for pvp in any way are holy pallies since they can dispel physical debuffs with hand of protection. time to go lazer chicken for good, or feral. For pve you the mana cost of the spells + the nerf to healing/regen makes druids useless in any raid, especially with the new aoe hot on shamans. Time to focus on gearing my pally for pvp heals and level my shaman for pve heals. Almost considering deleting my druid for a dk, not sure yet.

    modified to add that resto druids are lowest dps of all healers with their spells so unless you add some major dmg to spells cast by resto druids its 100% pointless anyways.

  8. #48

    Re: Druid - Cataclysm Preview Compilation

    Squeeze I like most of your arguments on healing but do not necessarily agree with all of them. The main shtick of my arguments is that CD's for a druid and a healer in general are unnecessary and ultimately end up as gimmicks because changing a healing style mid fight becomes a I should always have it up X ability or phase and wouldn't ever be able to reliably use it during any other point of the fight except for possibly the very beginning. I seriously doubt it will be a mana regen thing seeing as druids all have innervate.

    As for for tree of life being a static form and they want that removed from the game for more utility. By that logic warrior stances would also need to be removed seeing as they drastically limit what abilities can be used. By dropping out of form a druid instantly gains their utility back and can continue and then easily pop back into form and go back to doing what they do best.

    As for your points on feral I disagree with most of them because yes Feral does have a steep learning curve for dps but once that curve plateaus it becomes very boring because in a true raiding setting there should always be a feral tank or arms warrior to keep up the mangle/trauma debuff. and thank you for posting the timings of the abilities as well i forgot rake was base 9 seconds (still have t9 for feral [resto main spec since ICC came out]). But my point remains there are only 5 buttons being hit every 30 seconds because mangle debuff should always be up naturally in a true raid setting. in a perfect rotation (perfect 5 combo's every time with) the break down per minute would be

    Rip x3
    Rake x~6
    mangle 0-1
    savage roar 2
    ferocious bite 3
    Shred x46 (resource non issue)

    That is a 1 minute rotation for a feral druid on a fight with no movement and perfect combo points. But since perfect combo points never really happen savage roar would prolly be closer to 3 uses and ferocious bite only 2. and shred would be much lower due to energy costs prolly closer to 20-25 with tigers fury and ooc

    I do not believe that to be very active rotation and with any decent debuff monitor to time durations to optimize uptime of abilites. and the actual amount of downtime that there is waiting for energy regen. There is also no variation on what abilities are used unlike in other classes rotations like an arms warrior's overpower/execute or a frost dk's rhyme.


  9. #49

    Re: Druid - Cataclysm Preview Compilation

    Quote Originally Posted by Bombthreat
    John Madden crowd?
    Don't want to get skipped.

    Sig by: khatsoo

  10. #50

    Re: Druid - Cataclysm Preview Compilation

    I don't think feral dps is 'hard'. Heck I wouldn't consider anything about this game 'hard'. Every single aspect can be easily broken down to a couple sentences. Now it might take some practice to 'not let savage roar fall' or 'dump defile outside the group', but nothing is 'hard'.

    That said, I am not happy about how feral dps can suffer if you let something slip.. Stuff happens. You could have to pop out to innervate that overhealing pally or to BR that huntard that stood in the fire. You might have hit a lag spike. Stuff happens. I am happy to hear that they want to smooth that edge some. I personally think that if they apply the anti-clipping mechanic to our dots then that would be accomplished.

    What I would have liked to see for feral dps, though, is shreds from the front and a threat dump.

    Tree of life change? Who wants to complain about that?? I mean you are going to have all you have now PLUS full movement speed and a new CD to increase heals.

    Now if only they would give bears some protection from accidentally changing action bars with a shift click and using an ability that pops you into caster form...oops, 1 shot. gg.

  11. #51

    Re: Druid - Cataclysm Preview Compilation

    Quote Originally Posted by FishingLure
    Now if only they would give bears some protection from accidentally changing action bars with a shift click and using an ability that pops you into caster form...oops, 1 shot. gg.
    I sincerely hope this is a joke! Not only has this never happened to me nor do I know of any other feral tank its happened to, but this is what key re-binds are for!

    This would be like failing the first hurdle and worse than missing a void zone since you cannot even play *any* class let alone spec if you do not understand key binds!

  12. #52

    Re: Druid - Cataclysm Preview Compilation

    Tree of life change? Who wants to complain about that?? I mean you are going to have all you have now PLUS full movement speed and a new CD to increase heals.
    There has been full movement speed for some time. The fact is that they are adding a general CD, which is historically and currently an awful mechanic for a druid to have, as a new core. CD's are gimmicky at best and ultimately become obsolete in a healing environment because tools like that become "mandatory" at certain parts of an encounter and are all but useless at any other point in time

  13. #53

    Re: Druid - Cataclysm Preview Compilation

    While I'm certainly disappointed that ToL is being relegated to a CD, everyone seems to have left out the wonderful PvP aspect that ToL had. Being in ToL in arena kept druids from being sapped, which is probably the biggest thing I'm annoyed with by making ToL a CD.

  14. #54

    Re: Druid - Cataclysm Preview Compilation

    Quote Originally Posted by Wotch
    The fact is that they are adding a general CD, which is historically and currently an awful mechanic for a druid to have, as a new core. CD's are gimmicky at best and ultimately become obsolete in a healing environment because tools like that become "mandatory" at certain parts and are all but useless at any other point in time
    I actually agree with you on this point. CD's suck for healing. ToL either becomes the new Tranquility (and never gets used) or worse, you'll be itching waiting around most of the time for it as you lose a lot of your effectiveness like Penance for disc. priests but with a much higher cooldown. If they are getting rid of ToL, they should kill it completely.

    The worst case scenario: with a Penance-like CD (too powerful to ignore but rest of your spells without it luckluster), druids could become the new disc. priests where you take one or absolute maximum two on a 25-man raid if that at all. And most of the time you would be better off stacking 5xHoly Priests or 5x Holy Paladins. Anyone else see that Paragon hc LK-25 man healing comp.?

    I would much rather get a new tool like shaman's awesome Healing Rain (remotely-placed Wild Growth ftw!) or priests "lolgrip".

    Any disc. priests out there, please don't kill me I actually *love* the idea of being a disc. priest (not just for 10-mans and below), but absorbs are never registered properly in logs or meters so its difficult to know how much of a total contribution you make in 25-man. With this new Cataclysm group disc. spell if Blizzard only fixed the log issue once and for all, I'd be dusting off my priest to make it my main for sure!

  15. #55

    Re: Druid - Cataclysm Preview Compilation

    I see your point. It might be nice to have an 'Oh Snap!' button, but you would eventually outgear the need for it. Just make it grant 20% haste to the raid! Take that shamans!

  16. #56

    Re: Druid - Cataclysm Preview Compilation

    I think Blizzard should have taken a page out of the Shadow Priest when dealing with Tree of Life.

    This way we can keep Tree of Life while Tree of Life gain some new Nature Spells in order to give up their Arcane spells.

    This would help rebuild Balance Tree to more balance between Arcane and Nature spells.

    If Blizzard move Insect Swarm to Resto and have Improved Insect Swarm heal like Leeching Swarm in Anub'arak fight. It is like you go to a tree and there is a bee hive on it, those Insect will protect their home. This would make to melee DPS get those healing power while the tank is being healed.

    Wrath is a nature spell.

    Have Entangling Roots, and Improved Thorns be part of the Tree of Life's talent and be move to Resto Talent tree.

    Blizzard need to think what does Ents do when under attack.

    Make Resto a Nature talent tree.

  17. #57

    Re: Druid - Cataclysm Preview Compilation

    Quote Originally Posted by Auroro
    I think Blizzard should have taken a page out of the Shadow Priest when dealing with Tree of Life.
    Shadowform == Moonkin

    As discussed before, from Blizzard's own posts, to compete with other dps, hybrids need to be able to go all out, i.e. they specialise as dps by giving up utility. Something neither tanks or healers can afford to do. Therefore, "forms/stances" like Shadowform and Moonkin make sense for dps.

    Quote Originally Posted by Auroro
    Blizzard need to think what does Ents do when under attack.

    Make Resto a Nature talent tree.
    That might have worked extremely well for a single player game. But in a competitive MMO with heavy pve emphasis and where roles are clearly defined (tank/dps/healing), having just another hybrid spec won't cut it these days for most people. People who want to heal would move to the better healing classes. People who want to dps would move to the pure dps classes.

  18. #58

    Re: Druid - Cataclysm Preview Compilation

    Quote Originally Posted by squeeze
    Shadowform == Moonkin

    As discussed before, from Blizzard's own posts, to compete with other dps, hybrids need to be able to go all out, i.e. they specialise as dps by giving up utility. Something neither tanks or healers can afford to do. Therefore, "forms/stances" like Shadowform and Moonkin make sense for dps.

    That might have worked extremely well for a single player game. But in a competitive MMO with heavy pve emphasis and where roles are clearly defined (tank/dps/healing), having just another hybrid spec won't cut it these days for most people. People who want to heal would move to the better healing classes. People who want to dps would move to the pure dps classes.
    I was adding a bit of DPS in a healing form.

    Like changing Insect Swarm to be more like Leeching Swarm would help a lot in dps for pvp and can be a fun thing for a boss fight. It would be like Holy Nova from Priest but it is HoT/DoT and not a blast of Healing/Damage.

    Wrath can be like Holy Fire for Holy Priest.

    I think Blizzard is being a idiot for not thinking about doing Shadow Priest idea.

    Their reason is silly, "that druid want to show off their gear". That just being lazy as well as them not letting druid take different form from potion because people can't tell which druid form they are in. Red Bar=Bear, Yellow Bar=Kitty, Blue Bar=Tree/Moonkin. If it is Blue Bar then what spells and buff are they using?

    This is the best chance to rebuild Balance to be more like a balance between Arcane and Nature and give a spell that is both Nature and Arcane like Frostfire Bolt (Mage), Fire/Ice, or Mind Spike (Shadow Priest), Shadow/Ice.

    Moving a couple of talents to rebuild the balance and resto might be the best ideas than removing ToL. I could rebuild the Balance tree and Resto Tree that would work with other class and have some weakness better than what blizzard is think of.

    We can all agree that Blizzard is a bit clueless when it come to Druid Class.

  19. #59

    Re: Druid - Cataclysm Preview Compilation

    Quote Originally Posted by Auroro

    We can all agree that Blizzard is a bit clueless when it come to Druid Class.
    Yes we can. But we all know they will just steamroll these changes regardless of whatever protest we have. And 'try' to fix them later on.

  20. #60

    Re: Druid - Cataclysm Preview Compilation

    Quote Originally Posted by Peta
    Yes we can. But we all know they will just steamroll these changes regardless of whatever protest we have. And 'try' to fix them later on.
    I hope not. But I suspect you'll be right.

    I'm still holding out to see how Paladin class preview works out. But in terms of healing, they can only really get better, right? And they are pretty damn useful already. So, it should be a toss up between Priest and Paladin for the best healing changes in Cataclysm.

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