Gap Closer? Help me understand.

[Deathleaper]

Im pretty sure blizz isnt going to give pallies everything they want. If they do are you sure you want it? How many dks were there when they were OP? If thats what you want for your class.... then good luck.

[dyce09]

I don't pvp as ret, but I understand why people feel they 'need' a gap closer. All the other melee classes (DK, warrior, rogue, enh shaman) have some way to get close to their target (or have their target get close to them) AND a way to reduce their movement speed... where as Retadin's have neither.

Judge of Justice only puts them at 100% max speed
Rogue - Crippling 70% reduction (dispellable)
Warrior - Hamstring 70% reduction (non-dispellable)
DK - Chain of Ice 95%-0% reduction (dispellable)
Enh - Frost Shock 50% reduction (dispellable)
Enh - Earthbind Totem 50% reduction (non-dispellable)

Repentence does help to close the gap from a kiting target BUT since it's an 'incapacitate' ability anyone that damages your target will release the repentence, thus occasionally making it useless. Also, many times this ability is used as a CC in arena rather than just a gap closer. Other classes have specific abilities that only purpose is to close the gap (or very close to only purpose)

Rogue - Sprint (although can be used for many things, in an aggressive offensive use is to keep close to target always)
Warrior - Charge AND intercept, both on seperate cooldowns
DK - Deathgrip (although can be used as a peeler to help a healer getting focused, in an offensive way, useds to close gaps)
Enh - Ghostwolf (enh's shaman's hardly "run" away from something so this is used to get close to targets - and immune to snares)

The point here is that other all other melee classes have ways to greatly SLOW their target below just normal speed, allowing them to not have to 'chase' their target as much as well as specific moves that are solely OR mostly used to close the gap between their targets to keep as much time right next to your target.


Although, with this being said there are things that paladin's have that those other melee classes do not. Paladin's have the ability to cleanse a lot of debuffs and movement snares, they have things like Freedom that allows them to be immune for a few secs, they have the immune bubble and other than enh shaman's, they can heal themselves and others. So really, they have benefits that others don't and others have benefits that ret's don't.

[Lumidar]

I really dont understand the problem here...

you have judgement of justice it makes people not run faster than 100%

you run 15% faster than most classes if you are ret or prot ret i dont see holy pallys needing to close gaps that much other than duels and maybe some 1v1's in arena that may happen once in like 100 games due to people dying at the same time or some thing

you have a ranged stun (its farther than melee range and it can be glyphed for more range)

you currently have cleanse so you can remove slowing effects from your self

you also have blessing of freedom

if you are prot you have a slow (shield throw) to close gaps if you are ret you have repentance to close gaps

so honestly what do you really want do you want a charge or a death grip or sprint?

if so why not play the classes that have those

i understand things can be purged dispelled cleansed or whatever but

you have just as good of a chance as any other melee out there vs a good caster

all the other melee that have gap closers cant do the ablitys you can so whats the real issue here

if you think its so easy having a "gap closer" try playing a class that has one vs a good ranged that has a "gap opener" (if you will) and see how its really not all that differnt

something tells me you've never actually played an end-game pally in real pvp battles.

as you said, judgement of justice reduces to 100% max (only 3 classes have the 15% speed talents, for others it just removes the Tuskar enchant on boots... ) it's not really a slow it just puts people to what they should be if they didnt have those talents or enchants.

running 15% faster doesnt do much to close gaps since there are plenty of CCs or ways to increase gaps now in WotLK.

a ranged stun? 10 yards is HARDLY ranged, and glyphing to 15yrds is not worth wasting a glyph spot since the REAL problem is getting to people who are 30-40yrds away.

Cleanse is on global cooldown and prevents you from using anything else for that time, in the reaction time it takes you to react and cleanse yourself the enemy is still running away and INCREASING the gap...

Blessing of Freedom is good but the long cooldown and short duration make it a 1 time thing and then you have to hope it's not against a Hunter, Mage, Shaman or Warlock with felhunter pet since they can just dispel Freedom off you which makes it useless.

it is true that as prot we have the Shield Throw but all pallies who PVP as prot use it for the Silence more than the daze effect. if you use it for closing dinstance you might not be able to interrupt the enemy when it's really needed before your cooldown comes back so most people save it unless you have no choice (when you're in a kite-fest and haven't touched the person in over 5-10sec)

so honestly what do you really want do you want a charge or a death grip or sprint?

if so why not play the classes that have those

Warrior - Charge/Intercept + Hamstring (and peircing howl if talented)
Rogue - Sprint (and shadow step if talented) + Crippling Poison
Druid - Charge/Pounce + Infected Wounds
DK - Death Grip + Chains of Ice
Enh. Sham - Ghostwolf + Earthbind Totem and Frostshock
Paladin - ??? + ???

the whole point is that EVERY other class has a Gap closer AND a Slow, Paladins are the ONLY Melee and Tank classes who do NOT have these things. you're saying we don't have these things cus of other tools that other melee don't have??

like what??

healing is casted and can be interrupted and you can't dodge/parry/block while casting, alsoshamans and druids can heal too;
Blessing of freedom is not unique to paladins, what about anti-magic shell and cloak of shadows which give the same outcome (and Prot warriors can remove snares with intercept) or cleansing totem for enhance shams;
Bubble is an "OH Sh*t" button which is something every class has:

Rogue - Vanish, Cloak of Shadows, Evasion
Warrior - Last Stand (and shield wall for prot), Enraged Regeneration
Druid - Survival Instincts, Bark Skin, Frenzied Regeneration(bear only)
DK - depends on spec (Vampiric Blood, Lichborne, Boneshield, anti-magic zone and the heal talents in blood)
Shamans - Shamanistic Rage, Glyph of Stoneclaw Totem, Spirit Wolves

so there's nothing so special that we have that makes us have absolutely NO distance closer and NO slow.

if you think its so easy having a "gap closer" try playing a class that has one vs a good ranged that has a "gap opener" (if you will) and see how its really not all that differnt

I do also play a DK and it is ALOT easier with Death grip and chains of ice to stay in a fight and NOT be chain kited for 30seconds. you're not spending your time just running after someone not able to do anything if you had a distance closer.

[Styria]

Im pretty sure blizz isnt going to give pallies everything they want. If they do are you sure you want it? How many dks were there when they were OP? If thats what you want for your class.... then good luck.

yeah we wouldn't want that many paladins... oh wait...

[dyce09]

the whole point is that EVERY other class has a Gap closer AND a Slow, Paladins are the ONLY Melee and Tank classes who do NOT have these things. you're saying we don't have these things cus of other tools that other melee don't have??

like what??

healing is casted and can be interrupted and you can't dodge/parry/block while casting;
Blessing of freedom is not unique to paladins, what about anti-magic shell and cloak of shadows which give the same outcome (and Prot warriors can remove snares with intercept);
Bubble is an "OH Sh*t" button which every class has:

Rogue - Vanish, Cloak of Shadows, Evasion
Warrior - Last Stand (and shield wall for prot), Enraged Regeneration
Druid - Survival Instincts, Bark Skin, Frenzied Regeneration(bear only)
DK - depends on spec (Vampiric Blood, Lichborne, Boneshield, anti-magic zone and the heal talents in blood)
Shamans - Shamanistic Rage, Glyph of Stoneclaw Totem, Spirit Wolves

Some of this is just grasping at straws. Although I agree with you about the first part of your post, there are some things here that you seem to be reaching for some qq sympathy votes.

• Healing can be interupted yes - but if rogues were given the choice to attempt to heal themselves or die, I'd rather have at least a chance to heal myself. Also, Art of War gives instance flash heals.
• Freedom is unique as it removes ALL movement imparing effects AND makes you immune to them while active. Cloak of Skill removes MAGIC and gives HIGH resist to spells (not 100%) and AMS only makes you immune to MAGICAL movement impairing while active. Freedom can also be cast on others and has a shorter cooldown.
• Bubble is the best "oh shit button" as it makes you completely immune to everything AND you can still attack and cast spells. The abilities you listed for the other classes are "defensive" abilities which all classes have defensive abilities. They are not the same by any means.

so there's nothing so special that we have that makes us have absolutely NO distance closer and NO slow.

I do also play a DK and it is ALOT easier with Death grip and chains of ice to stay in a fight and NOT be chain kited for 30seconds. you're not spending your time just running after someone not able to do anything if you had a distance closer.

The only difference is that Paladin's don't have an 'easy' way to get close to their target like all the others do. Rogues sprint is not ideally the best, but that mixed with constant passively applied 70% reduction in movement makes a very good combo. Charges, Death Grips are just INSTANT ways to get next to your target. Paladin's have serveral ways to allow them to not be kited as well. Think of playing your death knight without a death grip. You're trying to stay close to a hunter, wing clips you and disengages... now you're 20-30 yards away (can't DG)... what do you do? Chain of Ice? Okay, you do so... so he drops a frost trap and keeps kiting. You run over the trap, possible get snared, and movement impaired again. So your chain of ice is still reducing his movement greatly, but you are constantly being slowed and snared yourself you won't be able to get melee range for a while. During this time, you are doing no damage AND he's doing lots. This is why death knights have DG.

As a ret paladin, you have several ways to get close to that hunter if he does the same thing. You start off close, he wing clips and disengages and drops trap. Depending on how far he disengages you, you repentence him. Now you have 10secs to get to him, which is more than enough, even with Wing Clip. You walk into his frost trap, possibly snared again, you cleanse and keep going. Now you're right beside him (haven't use freedom yet) and he's used disengage already. Now, you are in the frost trap still or he's wing clipped you again and starts to kite again. So you then use Freedom and now can blow your GCD's for your big burst damage.

Much better than a DK without deathgrip. That is the point, it's a different type of playing in order to be 'good' at pvp.

[Styria]

As a ret paladin, you have several ways to get close to that hunter if he does the same thing. You start off close, he wing clips and disengages and drops trap. Depending on how far he disengages you, you repentence him. Now you have 10secs to get to him, which is more than enough, even with Wing Clip. You walk into his frost trap, possibly snared again, you cleanse and keep going. Now you're right beside him (haven't use freedom yet) and he's used disengage already. Now, you are in the frost trap still or he's wing clipped you again and starts to kite again. So you then use Freedom and now can blow your GCD's for your big burst damage.

First, you hope he doesnt disengage more than 20 yards away, or this entire theory is gone. Second, repentance lasts 6 seconds, not 10. Third, you cant cleanse frost trap. you can cleanse the sanre that happens due to a survival talent, but your still slowed by the trap. then you get to the hunter. he wing clips you again, pops deterrence and runs away. Possibly snares you with his pet (depending on what they have) after deterrence wears off, by then disengage is off cd again and they're gone. Also, Tranquilizing shot can remove freedom.

[Ronark]

Im pretty sure blizz isnt going to give pallies everything they want. If they do are you sure you want it? How many dks were there when they were OP? If thats what you want for your class.... then good luck.

They also had 4 years to attempt to balance paladins, instead of 7 months.

[DaGhostDS]

They also had 4 years to attempt to balance paladins, instead of 7 months.

they made joke about us while they were supposed to be working on us.. thats why they never released anything that seem to have been worked on

[Sogeking]

they made joke about us while they were supposed to be working on us.. thats why they never released anything that seem to have been worked on

but we will paint the world pink and turn everyone in our holy and righteous submission of holy light and love

[Relina]

Yes please let's homogenize the game even more. Rets have a lot of tools to get back into melee range, you just aren't the best at it, somebody has to be the bottom rung of the ladder. Cry me a river, build a bridge, and get over it.

[Sogeking]

Yes please let's homogenize the game even more. Rets have a lot of tools to get back into melee range, you just aren't the best at it, somebody has to be the bottom rung of the ladder. Cry me a river, build a bridge, and get over it.

indeed.
i can run to you,
or even run to you,
or simply run to you~
if i want to close the gap.

[Smolz]

A ret hits hard do compensate for that

This made me sad Only reason why I'm playing +2.3k is that I can A) Dispel B) Just watch my hunter solo enemies with my freedom C) HoP D) Heal in 2on2 arena. It is true that retries are VERY good at killing scrubs in bgs, but in bg I can't kill any good healers even with hoj. With good healer i don't mean equally geared healers. I can barely do damage to full wrathful holy paladin, rshaman or rduir. I actually do hit to priests but if they have anything up they will survive. I'm pretty sure, that i do less damage now than i did over a year ago. Also in arena retries can't benefit from wings like in BGs. It is suicide to use wings in arena, really. And about bubble, well fuck that *massdispel* *shattering throw*.

The thing retries need is an interrupt or a gapcloser. It's not bullshit. There's still some retries at high rating arena but after removing THE MOST IMPORTANT RETRISKILL we will be SHIT. Well that 3min cd pet + wings can be pretty op and a way to get killing blow in arena but that's not the way I want to win arenas. The myth that retries actually have best burst is bullshit. I really wanted something in trade from losing dispel but I'm glad that my mage is already lvl70!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=F82resGO2pU

indeed.
i can run to you,
or even run to you,
or simply run to you~
if i want to close the gap.

Or i can run away from you and do damage at same time.

[Bloodhead]

and the abilitys that the other classes have cant be countered just as easily? thats the main thing i dont get you can do all of these things that other classes cant do but you also want what the cllass that has this gap closer has

i want the ablity to BOF my self out of a sxun and spam cleanse my self to get out of a frost bolt or get a conflag slow off of me

and im sure DK's and rogues also want these ablitys also

why do you want your cake and be able to eat it also this is what i dont understand ive seen pallys complain about this for years and i never understood it

this is what i dont understand you have awsome ablitys but you want to be unstoppable juggernauts that have a slow, an interupt, a charge/grip/blink/whatever, the ablity to heal to full, become immune, sxun / incap, dispells ECT

How can you justify having all of those ablitys and not giving up any?

Please stop committing a straw man fallacy it just makes you seem like an ass

[Fenixdown]

This is just kinda my opinion, but PvP right now is balanced around 3s, which is why paladins have no gap closer. They can build their team around that personal drawback.

In Cataclysm PvP will likely be balanced more around battlegrounds. In battlegrounds, you have a much larger group of people than in an arena team, and the odds that none of your team members aren't going to have some form of range closer (or even range, for that matter) is slim, so there is still no need for a gap closer.

The only situation I can see the necessity for a gap closer for paladin (or any other class) is for 1v1 situations, and PvP is not balanced around this whatsoever.

But there is still no telling what will replace Crusader Strike in what will now be it's empty slot to fill, so it's still a "wait and see" scenario. But I have to agree, saying paladin needs a gap closer is like saying priest needs another distance maker. You can trinket fear, and unless you are shadow that is yuor only form of distance maker mechanic and it has a 30 second cooldown (27 with PvP gloves). Classes that can heal themselves need less utility than classes that do not because they have the built-in utility already : the ability to heal.

[Ronark]

This is just kinda my opinion, but PvP right now is balanced around 3s, which is why paladins have no gap closer. They can build their team around that personal drawback.

In Cataclysm PvP will likely be balanced more around battlegrounds. In battlegrounds, you have a much larger group of people than in an arena team, and the odds that none of your team members aren't going to have some form of range closer (or even range, for that matter) is slim, so there is still no need for a gap closer.

The only situation I can see the necessity for a gap closer for paladin (or any other class) is for 1v1 situations, and PvP is not balanced around this whatsoever.

But there is still no telling what will replace Crusader Strike in what will now be it's empty slot to fill, so it's still a "wait and see" scenario. But I have to agree, saying paladin needs a gap closer is like saying priest needs another distance maker. You can trinket fear, and unless you are shadow that is yuor only form of distance maker mechanic and it has a 30 second cooldown (27 with PvP gloves). Classes that can heal themselves need less utility than classes that do not because they have the built-in utility already : the ability to heal.

PvE says Hi. Enh. Shamans and Feral Druids also say Hi as well, and want to know what kind of lemonaid you want.

[Styria]

Classes that can heal themselves need less utility than classes that do not because they have the built-in utility already : the ability to heal.

By this logic, only 2 classes should have any utility at all.

Rogues are the only class that cant heal AT ALL

Hunters have mend pet, that's a heal, but i wont be a dick and count it.

Now, other classes that can heal, that everyone overlooks:

DK's - Passive healing from blood presence. Use f*cking death strike instead of oblit/SS if you absolutely have to. A dead dps does less damage than one that nerfs its damage slightly for the sake of staying alive. Also - Death Pact

Mages: Glyph of Evocation - Minor Glyph - no reason to not have it. Can also conjure food. not hard to invis and run away to sit and eat if evo is on cd.

Priests: 2 healing trees, Vampiric embrace, can also cast heals out of shadowform. Devouring Plague.

Druids: Resto... duh... feral - imp LotP, can cast heals. Boomkins - castable heals. granted, both feral and boomkin have to leave form (oh noes?)

Shaman: Castable heals. Ele are still pretty strong due to high SP, enhance, Maelstrom procs usable, resto... derp

Warriors: Blood Craze, Second Wind, Enraged Regen.

Warlocks: Haunt, Healthstones, Affliction has a talent for corruption to heal them. Improved Soul Leech (destro). Mana Tap. Drain Life.

Paladins: Holy... derp. Ret... Art of War procs. Castable Heals, Seal of Light.

[Sogeking]

you forgot dk's lichborne+DeathCoil combo, along with Rune Tap and Imp Rune Tap.

[AnotherPaladin]

I don't think we need a gap closer a ton. It'd be nice to have something, but as for now we're pretty balanced. I wouldn't mind seeing something on a long cd (5 min) that could slow a target down.

[Ronark]

I don't think we need a gap closer a ton. It'd be nice to have something, but as for now we're pretty balanced. I wouldn't mind seeing something on a long cd (5 min) that could slow a target down.

This thread is about Cataclysm, not about 3.3.3 though.

[Styria]

you forgot dk's lichborne+DeathCoil combo, along with Rune Tap and Imp Rune Tap.

i did... adding