Fail Tank is Fail

[Exera]

Every single top guild tank I look at in the armory gems all stamina, enchants all stamina.

Is it really that hard for people to simply look at the most successful tanks and copy it...

Every single tank in the top end guilds also has supperior gear to your average tank that tries to pug ICC 10. Copying what the top end tanks does when you're in a significantly lower gear level wont help you one little bit... Period. Everyone knows that you dont start gemming full out stamina unless you have the gear to support such gemming.

Basically dont compare the best geared tanks in the world to the average pug tank.

[Lynarii]

Fail Raid Leader is Fail

Even heroic Marrowgar 10's cleave only hits for about 26k on a single target, if that's your fear then I think you need to look at your healers a lot more than your tank HP. What makes you fail though is that you didn't even bother to look at his gear. The idiot test is all about what he gives up for avoidance vs stamina. Is he socketing dodge gems in blue sockets? If yes, then he's probably bad. But using an item like the Corpse Tongue Coin over, say, a brewfest stein in the trinket slot does not make a tank 'fail'. A good raid leader actually checks before making decisions. A good raid leader also doesn't feel the need to post to the internet in the hopes that everyone will broforce them for having a 'put teh nubz in ther place' attitude.

(Mayhaps I`m a bit bitter at knee-jerk reactions like that because I have been kicked from a VoA 10 pug for having low HP as a tank... only 38k unbuffed... in caster form (over 60k buffed in bear))

[Kuror]

people are stupid and dont know how to play its as simple as taht and most of them dont want to take thet time to become a good player

[Hartowag]

but if he ate a full cleave from marrow, he would have been 1-shot.

...

icc10.... he hits like a friggin pillow, no way in hell he would cleave for 40k.

[Deleted]

Avoidance really isn't as bad as most people think.

Calling it Russian Roulette is unfair. Luck plays somewhat of a part in determining how effectively the tank tanks, but is a lot less than people think.

Imagine this hypothetical scenario.

Say a guy has 50% chance to avoid damage. How often will his health spike, and how often will he conserve health? It would be about 50-50. So every time he gets hits, it's like flipping a coin. Heads, he gets whomped. Tails, he takes immune.

On the other hand, what if the guy had 100% chance to avoid damage? Well, in THAT case his health isn't going to be spiky at all. In fact, it's going to be just the opposite. It's going to be completely static. He'll resist all damage, all the time, and the coin flipping goes away completely.

By mathematical standards, that's called entropy, or the study of static variables as the result of probability. Probability isn't always a coin flip, and getting 60-40 on 100 coin flips is unrealistic, because that requires you to get heads 50% more often than you get tails.

In ICC10 gear, Dodge + Parry for a DK, both of which I'm guessing are at about 65-70% total, plus raid buffs, we're talking about a very static intake of damage. To be hit by an attack more than twice in a row in a full 6 minutes of fighting is probably extremely unrealistic, and will most likely never happen. If it does, that's what PW:S is for

I'm not saying health isn't better overall for tanking. It's just that parry/dodge are valuable enough on their own.

You know... as much as I respect your knowledge of mathematics and all... I'll have to say.. you don't take one very important point into your theories:
No tank has high avoidance anymore. Not because you don't gem for it, but because you can't get extremely high anymore. Blizz fixxed it.
So let's say you'd have a 90% chance to take 0 damage. (parry, dodge, miss)
This means that, statistically, you'll dodge 1 of 10 hits. In other words if you get hit for years and years, the number of hits to Misses/Dodges/Parries will be 1 to 9.
The problem is the following:
The chance you're hit once in a row (read - hit one time) is 10%, or 1/10th.
The chance you're hit twice in a row is 1/10 * 1/10, so 1/100.
The chance you're hit three times in a row is 1/10 * 1/10 * 1/10 = 1/1000. And if that happens, you're bound to be dead.
Let's say a boss hits once every 2.4secs and you're fighting for 6 minutes.
That's 125 hits. So the chance you'll surely be killed is 12.5% in a 6min-battle.
The chance you're likely to be killed (hit twice in a row) is 125% :/

And taking his HP into account, he definitely IS very likely to be two-shot... moreso if you take into account that he must have very little avoidance.
Teeny from my guild has only 50% avoidance unbuffed, yes, he stacks Stamina, but he has by far better gear than others. (I guess he's above 6k GS by now, which implies that he has to have way a lot of avoidance from gear)
So in reality the avoidance-number of the tank the OP mentioned should be way less than 80%, meaning that he WILL be two-shot, or at least three-shot.
Waaaay to risky taking such a tank with you.


PS: Damn, forgot to take the 20% dodge-reduce into account... this guarantees his death.

[Hagane]

I've never done an icc where the tank did not already have 40k unbuffed

grats to OP for not wanting to wipe 100 times, don't let <5k gs'ers tell you otherwise

WOW. I had respect for you until You said <5k Gs'ers

Im well over 5k and I'm calling you an idiot.

[Anij]

For DK tanks at least, go straight stam, me and another dk tank run icc25 and have no problems holding aggro or getting hit too hard, and we stack straight stam.

Armory

http://www.wowarmory.com/character-s...els&n=icemanpn

Avoidance is good, but not when you can get 2shot.

+stats as tank is fail

[Cirayne24]

http://eu.wowarmory.com/character-sh...jatar&cn=Teeny

^ stam > avoidance

/thread?

EH > stam

But whats up with Teeny...

No Pillars of Might, No Verdigis Chain Belt, Such low hit, terrible sigil for ICC...


But back on topic. 32k Health is low, but who cares, its ICC 10 normal and you get a 10% buff... probably would have done fine.

[rockadin]

I've never done an icc where the tank did not already have 40k unbuffed

grats to OP for not wanting to wipe 100 times, don't let <5k gs'ers tell you otherwise

I did, good thing I was the tank. (Up to and including putricide before it got farm status )

[Sir_Diealot]

You know... as much as I respect your knowledge of mathematics and all... I'll have to say.. you don't take one very important point into your theories:
No tank has high avoidance anymore. Not because you don't gem for it, but because you can't get extremely high anymore. Blizz fixxed it.
So let's say you'd have a 90% chance to take 0 damage. (parry, dodge, miss)
This means that, statistically, you'll dodge 1 of 10 hits. In other words if you get hit for years and years, the number of hits to Misses/Dodges/Parries will be 1 to 9.
The problem is the following:
The chance you're hit once in a row (read - hit one time) is 10%, or 1/10th.
The chance you're hit twice in a row is 1/10 * 1/10, so 1/100.
The chance you're hit three times in a row is 1/10 * 1/10 * 1/10 = 1/1000. And if that happens, you're bound to be dead.
Let's say a boss hits once every 2.4secs and you're fighting for 6 minutes.
That's 125 hits. So the chance you'll surely be killed is 12.5% in a 6min-battle.
The chance you're likely to be killed (hit twice in a row) is 125% :/

And taking his HP into account, he definitely IS very likely to be two-shot... moreso if you take into account that he must have very little avoidance.
Teeny from my guild has only 50% avoidance unbuffed, yes, he stacks Stamina, but he has by far better gear than others. (I guess he's above 6k GS by now, which implies that he has to have way a lot of avoidance from gear)
So in reality the avoidance-number of the tank the OP mentioned should be way less than 80%, meaning that he WILL be two-shot, or at least three-shot.
Waaaay to risky taking such a tank with you.


PS: Damn, forgot to take the 20% dodge-reduce into account... this guarantees his death.

^This.

Stacking avoidance and comparing it to Russian Roulette is completely accurate. You hope RNG lines up in your favor. You can push numbers as far as you want, but until you are at 100% there will always be a proverbial bullet in the chamber. And even if you could hit that point you have to be damn careful about fights that stun and turning your back to bosses.

[shamaster]

i am pretty sure nothing is going to 1 shot a 32k tank in 10 man icc

maybe 2 shot, but what hits for 32k in 10 icc? and if there is something hitting that hard, why isnt the tank using cds then?

if his avoidance is high enough, and the healers react fast enough (considering no parry gibbing), 32k should be fine. most things have a 2 to 3 sec swing timer if hitting for over 10k, in which case u should have time to heal him back up. the thing is that healers would rather a tank just stack stam so they can just spam big heals, instead of re-actively healing

correct me if something does hit for 32k in 10 man icc, that isnt preventable or tracked by DMB

[Volitans]

Regardless of the amount of avoidance, unless he had 120% (clearly he didnt), there was a good chance he was going to die.

Yes, im sure it has been done before, and of course it would then come down to the healers being able to heal him through, and cross their fingers that the RNG gods smile.

I would rather not take the risk of wiping on one of the easiest bosses (in a PUG!!!).

We all know the quality of pug people can vary enormously, and to allow easily avoidable risks is bad management / raid leading.

[Blada]

EH > stam

But whats up with Teeny...

No Pillars of Might, No Verdigis Chain Belt, Such low hit, terrible sigil for ICC...


But back on topic. 32k Health is low, but who cares, its ICC 10 normal and you get a 10% buff... probably would have done fine.

You are complaining about his low hit when getting the belt you suggested will drop him even lower, and getting the legs you suggested will drop his expertise well below cap. Besides he is one of ~75 people who have killed heroic lich king, so I kinda figure he knows what he is doing.

Btw, this is the warrior forums. I have no idea why all these people are talking about dks. If anything this thread could be in the raid/dungeon section of the forums, considering it has nothing to do with warriors.

[secret]

first u said avoid and then hp > dps,what u mean?

and my alt dk have even worse gear and hp with stacking stam and still can do icc 25man....

[RPZip]

EH > stam

But whats up with Teeny...

No Pillars of Might, No Verdigis Chain Belt, Such low hit, terrible sigil for ICC...

The sigil is better if you're tanking consistently rather than trading off or tanking adds, and armor doesn't help when the damage you're worried about is massive magical burst (see: Soul Reaper on HLK), not physical. Threat is also a joke, who needs hit for anything except Taunt?

Every single tank in the top end guilds also has supperior gear to your average tank that tries to pug ICC 10. Copying what the top end tanks does when you're in a significantly lower gear level wont help you one little bit... Period. Everyone knows that you dont start gemming full out stamina unless you have the gear to support such gemming.

Basically dont compare the best geared tanks in the world to the average pug tank.

You're really looking at it backward. You gem for straight EH until you reach a point where you're in no danger at all of being RNG'd into the floor, at which point you can start mixing in some avoidance. The high-end tanks keep gemming Stamina because that point is 'never' for the heroic bosses. If all you're doing is PuG'ing, you could conceivably reach that point in full normal ICC25 gear or so against normal ICC25 bosses but it'd take some work.

Someone in weaker gear must gem for EH if he wants to survive - it's only once you've reached a very high level of EH that you can really start dicking around with avoidance, and even then it's largely useless since by that point you're probably not dying anyway. For the vast majority of bosses, tanks can be comfortably healed by a single Holyadin and even then the majority of the heals will include overheal - aiming for higher HP totals gives them a larger leeway and will reduce their overhealing, both of which benefit you.

[Offhand]

So you didn't even give him a chance? Last I checked, especially for a DK, tanking is about avoidance and threat generation, not lol solid zircons.

He was stacking avoidance, no raid lead with half a brain would have "given him a chance".

And no, DK tanks (along with any other tank) aren't "avoidance based". Whatever the hell that means.

[Shiira]

And no, DK tanks (along with any other tank) aren't "avoidance based". Whatever the hell that means.

People are finally catching up to the time when it was a good idea to stack avoidance as a dk, back in naxx. We could get something like 85% avoidance in t7 gear, this let us keep bone shield up nearly 100% of the time and cover the gaps with icebound fortitude so we didn't need to care about health.

[Exera]

He was stacking avoidance, no raid lead with half a brain would have "given him a chance".

And no, DK tanks (along with any other tank) aren't "avoidance based". Whatever the hell that means.

The Op doesn't even know what gear the tank had..

I ran in ICC 10 with 33k HP unbuffed(and no I was not stacking avoidance and I'm still not), WITHOUT the 10% buff. I never once encountered even a slight issue tanking.

The tank would have done just fine, the OP justw anted to be carried, plain and simple.

[Lady Mormont]

Say a guy has 50% chance to avoid damage. How often will his health spike, and how often will he conserve health? It would be about 50-50. So every time he gets hits, it's like flipping a coin. Heads, he gets whomped. Tails, he takes immune.

This isn't completely accurate. He may start out at 50-50, but due to DR after you flip the coin, the coin magically turns into a 6-sided die where 4 sides are "unavoided hits" and 2 are avoided hits. Anyway, 32-33k hp unbuffed is fine for 4/12, but if the OP wanted to do more than that then 32k isn't enough. Festergut would have wiped the floor with his face.

[rabbimojo]

...
Stacking avoidance and comparing it to Russian Roulette is completely accurate. You hope RNG lines up in your favor. You can push numbers as far as you want, but until you are at 100% there will always be a proverbial bullet in the chamber. And even if you could hit that point you have to be damn careful about fights that stun and turning your back to bosses.

While what you say is accurate, I think it glosses over the value of avoidance.

...
You're really looking at it backward. You gem for straight EH until you reach a point where you're in no danger at all of being RNG'd into the floor, at which point you can start mixing in some avoidance. The high-end tanks keep gemming Stamina because that point is 'never' for the heroic bosses. If all you're doing is PuG'ing, you could conceivably reach that point in full normal ICC25 gear or so against normal ICC25 bosses but it'd take some work.
...

And this paints the other half of the picture.

Avoidance actually has a pretty significant effect on wipe likelihood, all EH discussions aside. It's just never anywhere near enough to outweigh what EH itself has, right now. Uld/ToC we never had enough stamina, but the bosses were spikier there, too. That changed a bit in ICC, so avoidance may have become the new thing. Then they Radiance'd us, and by lowering avoidance across the board, effectively lowered avoidance scaling to stay below health.

However, I think by the time we're talking 30% ICC buff, avoidance will be fine to gem. I'll probably still go mostly stam, but I think it'll get us to where stam-avoid hybrids for stam socket bonuses will be reasonable.

The Op doesn't even know what gear the tank had..

I ran in ICC 10 with 33k HP unbuffed(and no I was not stacking avoidance and I'm still not), WITHOUT the 10% buff. I never once encountered even a slight issue tanking.

The tank would have done just fine, the OP justw anted to be carried, plain and simple.

It's all about probabilities. I don't mean the RNG of avoidance, though. I mean the RNG of pugging players. If I took the guys I did all the 10 HMs with earlier in the xpac into ICC, sure I could tank with that little HP. However, if I didn't know my healer beyond that they are in a heal spec and have heal gear? Not something I'm willing to play with.

That's the whole point. :P Minimizing wipe likelihood.