Combat vs Mut

[vastalant]

I figured enough time has passed now to get a definitive answer. Which spec is the best against single target. I have looked at various Rogues and it seems to be a toss up.

[Lugo Moll]

Mutilate on long, sustained fights with low amounts of movement such as Saurfang and Festergut. Combat on interrupted fights with need for burst, such as Sindragosa.

Combat also has an advantage when there is target switching involved and when you can dps a second target with blade flurry.

[Krid]

Mutilate on long, sustained fights with low amounts of movement such as Saurfang and Festergut. Combat on interrupted fights with need for burst, such as Sindragosa.

Combat also has an advantage when there is target switching involved and when you can dps a second target with blade flurry.

[Tyrrandion]

Moll pretty much nailed it on the head. You really should have both sets, but if you wanted JUST one raiding spec, I'd go with combat. Mutilate is a bit better on single target, long sustained fights, but at higher gear levels, the difference is small. Most raiding rogues will go with both, but if you want a PvP offspec, I'd deff go with combat because Mut is cumbersome on some fights where your DP stacks can fall off or you're moving too much, and with combat being close to mutilate, you're not missing out on too much by having one strong combat spec. Plus, weapons are WAY easier to come by.

[vastalant]

I appreciate the input, thanks a bunch!

[Varian]

Combat, simply because mutilate no longer has a significant range of dps value to be picked over combat, however it isn't dissapointing to pick assassination, it's still a good build, but it doesn't help as much in the majority of current raid content.

[Silentshank]

i play a rogue as my main and i was mut for a long time until icc came out and i did not get any upgrades on daggers (using 2 ilvl232) but got upgrades with 2 ilvl251 axes. so i decided to switch to combat just because of better weapons. and ive stuck with it ever since. i just find combat more fun to play also.

[LeperHerring]

Mutilate on long, sustained fights with low amounts of movement such as Saurfang and Festergut. Combat on interrupted fights with need for burst, such as Sindragosa.

Based on what? Looking at World of Logs for ICC 25 hc I can't see mutilate having a definite advantage on any fights. Quite the opposite, it seems combat rogues are pulling higher numbers even on tank and spank fights.

[Lugo Moll]

Based on what? Looking at World of Logs for ICC 25 hc I can't see mutilate having a definite advantage on any fights. Quite the opposite, it seems combat rogues are pulling higher numbers even on tank and spank fights.

Based on theorycrafting, mainly from Elitist Jerks. I don't think WoL statistics are the best way of comparing specs. The rogues topping those charts may very well have lots of heroic ICC gear, and as someone else said combat scales better with good gear due to ArPen.

On normal ICC 25 gear levels or lower, however, mutilate is a lot better on single target tank'n'spank.

[elvez]

Based on theorycrafting, mainly from Elitist Jerks. I don't think WoL statistics are the best way of comparing specs. The rogues topping those charts may very well have lots of heroic ICC gear, and as someone else said combat scales better with good gear due to ArPen.

On normal ICC 25 gear levels or lower, however, mutilate is a lot better on single target tank'n'spank.

I have to disagree.
Given the best gear you can get from ICC 25 normal (minus the LK), Aldriana's spreadsheets shows Combat to be about 50 dps ahead of Mutilate, using a ruptureless rotation.
You could probably squeeze a couple hundred DPS more as combat if using rupture with the right spec and glyphs.
As always its mostly a matter of weapons: if you have better daggers than sword/axes then muti is probably better on single-target fights.

[LeperHerring]

Based on theorycrafting, mainly from Elitist Jerks. I don't think WoL statistics are the best way of comparing specs. The rogues topping those charts may very well have lots of heroic ICC gear, and as someone else said combat scales better with good gear due to ArPen.

On normal ICC 25 gear levels or lower, however, mutilate is a lot better on single target tank'n'spank.

This is why you need to understand the difference between theorycrafting and reality. Theorycrafting gives you a model that is constructed to correlate strongly with real world performance of rogues. When the model output does not match observed statistics (e.g., WoL) then you go and fix the model. If real world statistics show that combat is stronger than mutilate, then it's pointless to claim otherwise just because some model says so.

ICC 25 HC statistics are what matters at the moment because that's where the endgame is. If you're still working on ICC 25 normal then you're obviously not at a level where you need to care about theorycrafting in the first place, just run with what you find more fun to play.

[Sneakysnado@Gmail.com]

This is why you need to understand the difference between theorycrafting and reality. Theorycrafting gives you a model that is constructed to correlate strongly with real world performance of rogues. When the model output does not match observed statistics (e.g., WoL) then you go and fix the model. If real world statistics show that combat is stronger than mutilate, then it's pointless to claim otherwise just because some model says so.

ICC 25 HC statistics are what matters at the moment because that's where the endgame is. If you're still working on ICC 25 normal then you're obviously not at a level where you need to care about theorycrafting in the first place, just run with what you find more fun to play.

ICC 25 HC statistics are based on 20+ tricks a fight and hysterias, which given the same time on a boss, a mut rogue with hysteria will do less than a combat rogue with hysteria therefore the WoL, etc statics are skewered. The spreadsheet just shows what your dps would be if you played perfectly, naturally it'll be a little less and combat is probably ahead now a good bit in BiS because of rupture critting passively.

[LeperHerring]

ICC 25 HC statistics are based on 20+ tricks a fight and hysterias, which given the same time on a boss, a mut rogue with hysteria will do less than a combat rogue with hysteria therefore the WoL, etc statics are skewered.

There are always special circumstances. That's why you look at 50 or 100 rogues at the top of the rankings to get a decent sample. I've personally held many rankings all the way up to top 10 and we've never done anything special to boost my dps.

The spreadsheet just shows what your dps would be if you played perfectly, naturally it'll be a little less and combat is probably ahead now a good bit in BiS because of rupture critting passively.

No it does not, which is important to understand. I'll assume you're talking about Aldriana's sheet which is based on trying to come up with an analytic model for rogue DPS. The value it gives you is a number expected to correlate strongly with your DPS on an infinite length, stationary fight. It is not a number that represents what your actual DPS would be if played "perfectly".

[Spacewolf]

I think that the dps is semi irrelevant. I mean the discussion really falls on do you want daggers or do you want axes... i know what i chose.

[Longview]

I have to disagree.
Given the best gear you can get from ICC 25 normal (minus the LK), Aldriana's spreadsheets shows Combat to be about 50 dps ahead of Mutilate, using a ruptureless rotation.
You could probably squeeze a couple hundred DPS more as combat if using rupture with the right spec and glyphs.
As always its mostly a matter of weapons: if you have better daggers than sword/axes then muti is probably better on single-target fights.

No.

Mutilate DPS: 13682
Combat DPS: 13480
Source.

Thus by the time armor pen gains it's full value near the hard cap, combat almost catches up mutilate in single target dps.

[eatedcookie]

Another point is whether or not you have anyone else in your raid makeup to provide an equivalent of http://www.wowhead.com/spell=58413. If yes, then great. If not, then you might have to necessarily pick combat (not that that's a bad thing!) for the greater good.

[Longview]

Same goes for Master Poisoner for Assassination

[Taalyn]

Right now it really just comes down to what do you like to play more. You can have a Mutilate and a Combat spec and run 2 sets of gear or you can have 2 Combat specs with the same set of gear, one optimized for Eviscerate for fights with adds and heavy movement and one optimized for Rupture on fights w/o adds and/or heavy movement. You can have a Mutilate spec and a PvP spec because you hate Combat. You can have any of those options based on what weapons are available to you.

If you're asking this question you aren't in a guild that sits people for specific roles in order to get world firsts and you likely aren't doing ICC 25H, which, btw, doesn't have any fight that you need a specific spec for.

Marrowgar: Not hard, doesn't need an optimized spec
LDW: Mutilate sucks balls at adds so go stick on the boss the entire fight. Combat is great at adds so do add duty in P1
Gunship: Free loot
Saurfang: Mutilate will likely do better. Optimizing this fight is only to help your healers. Ranged DPS will determine the amount of Marks, killing him faster will reduce the amount of time spent healing those Marks (and to a minor extent the amount of Marks)
Festergut: Same as Saurfang except substitute Blood Beasts for Malleable Goo. This fight is important to optimize because there is a hard enrage timer.
Rotface: Depends on how well you play. Sucks for both specs if you have to run out with an Ooze. Combat is better if you can't stay on the boss during OOze Explosion
Putricide: Sucks for everyone
Princes: This fight is not about DPS it is about Survival. You can do this fight on 25 heroic with less than 10 people, probably less than 5
BQL: I'd argue Combat is better
Valithria: It's all adds and Combat is only special because it is good at Suppressor duty.
Sindragosa: I'd argue they're equal. Both specs can hack parts of the fight. Chilled to the Bone really doesn't affect one spec much more than the other
LK: Sucks for everyone, really.

[elvez]

No.

Mutilate DPS: 13682
Combat DPS: 13480
Source.

Apparently you didn't bother to read, I was talking about ICC 25 normal minus the LK. And I was talking about Aldriana's spreadsheet.
If anything, you just proved the fact that the DPS difference between the specs is so small that slight differences in modelling and RNG are enough to favor one spec over the other.

[Longview]

My apologies. I could've sworn that you wrote heroic, hell, I even double-checked.

But I still haven't seen anywhere that combat would beat mutilate in single target dps, regardless of the items being 264 or 277.

And yes, it's very marginal. RNG plays a part in the numbers. You should spec according to the best available weapons.