10 things commonly wrong with your ret paladin armory.

[Deleted]

While this is accurate, I would mock any Ret paladin using/rolling/wanting NES. It is a bad stigma that says Arp is always bad for pallies, but I'm going to perpetuate it in the case of this trinket. There are far too many easily accesible trinkets to be using this thing.

toc 25 or icc 10/25 or algalon would eb the places you can get ba better one asuming your alredy using greatness in your other trinket slot and i dunno but rolling against half the raid in toc 25 might eb easy but the chance of getting it is around the same as winning the lotttery.

[Deleted]

Remember that the definition of min/maxing from a game theory perspective is "getting the maximum benefit from a minimal change". Hence, your profession choices. There is no doubt from a mathematical standpoint that JC/BS/engineering is superior to all other ret prof combinations. If you or your raid leader is dissatisfied with your DPS output and you don't have this combo, then retraining is the way to go.

That being said, for the average player doing heroics, pug raids, and muddling through early ICC, there are almost always other changes that can be made that will be a bigger bang for your buck.

The 10 points are a pretty good guideline on ultimately what to do and not do. The further away you are from all 10, the worse off you'll be.

As for the NES, I wouldn't blame any pally for rolling on and using it in the absence of better alternatives. Altruism is for guild runs.

fixed it there

[Eurytos]

toc 25 or icc 10/25 or algalon would eb the places you can get ba better one asuming your alredy using greatness in your other trinket slot and i dunno but rolling against half the raid in toc 25 might eb easy but the chance of getting it is around the same as winning the lotttery.

lets focus on icc 10 for a second. provided the trinket drops, if you are rolling against 4 others for WFS, I might argue that your raid group is not setup optimally.

ToC 25...DC/DV is indeed tough to get, but if you set the raid up or lead the raid with everyone knowing your intentions it becomes easier.

ICC25...TaJ should go to all Paladins first. If you have 2 Rets in the raid, well, GL. If you have 3+ rets in the raid, I would refer to my Raid Comp argument.

This is why you have a guild. If your guild uses DKP, you shouldn't be spending DKP on anything but Tier tokens, and saving what you can for TaJ(IMO, ofc). If your guild uses loot council, you better tell your council how important TaJ is to Ret. If you use any other system of looting, find a new guild.

[DaGhostDS]

11. Divine intellect

need i say more? :-\

[Deleted]

lets focus on icc 10 for a second. provided the trinket drops, if you are rolling against 4 others for WFS, I might argue that your raid group is not setup optimally.

hmm 1 rogue, one ret, one enhancement shaman and one hunter isnt that bad of a setup and everyone of those classes can make use of the trinket, also how often is the raid setup for a 10 man realy min maxxed? its not uncommon to be either mele or caster heavy. not to mention the chance of having it drop at the first time.

but reayl your whole argument for not taking NES even if its an upgrade is that there are better upgrades out there that you might get while i think that if somethings an upgrade grab it because you can enver be sure if your going to get that ebtter item or not.

[Eurytos]

hmm 1 rogue, one ret, one enhancement shaman and one hunter isnt that bad of a setup and everyone of those classes can make use of the trinket, also how often is the raid setup for a 10 man realy min maxxed? its not uncommon to be either mele or caster heavy. not to mention the chance of having it drop at the first time.

but reayl your whole argument for not taking NES even if its an upgrade is that there are better upgrades out there that you might get while i think that if somethings an upgrade grab it because you can enver be sure if your going to get that ebtter item or not.

I wrote a whole bunch of stuff explaining and justifying why a paladin with NES equipped is not a paladin I want to raid with, then I just deleted it. Wate of time is a waste of time.

Also, in your raid setup, the ret is rolling against 3 others, not 4-5 others. Rolling against half the raid would indeed be rolling against 5 others(not 4 like i previously mentioned, though 4 + ret is 5, so whatev), which, in a 10man, is a bad group comp. Your point is invalid about the raid comp.

[Deleted]

I wrote a whole bunch of stuff explaining and justifying why a paladin with NES equipped is not a paladin I want to raid with, then I just deleted it. Wate of time is a waste of time.

Also, in your raid setup, the ret is rolling against 3 others, not 4-5 others. Rolling against half the raid would indeed be rolling against 5 others(not 4 like i previously mentioned, though 4 + ret is 5, so whatev), which, in a 10man, is a bad group comp. Your point is invalid about the raid comp.

but you would raid with one with mirror of truth? wich is a worse trinket for ret

[Eurytos]

but you would raid with one with mirror of truth? wich is a worse trinket for ret

yes.

[Deleted]

yes.

and how does this make sense to you?

[Riek]

I thought mirror of truth will more likely be better than NES when it comes to ret trinket? the proc and ICD on NES seems pretty bad no?

[Insanus]

i believe that you are, as they say, a turd sandwich

Haha! You made me laugh with that one! Great job mister! I liked it! ;D ;D ;D

[iktankniet]

Nmb1ez is banned 3 days for trolling.

carry on ppl

[Deleted]

11. Divine intellect

need i say more? :-\

taking or not taking divine intellect is completely up to the raid utility the paladin wants to bring. in the case of aura mastery, it is the only logical choice, out of 2 healing talents and 1 PvP talent. in the case of the 5/7/59 spec, you don't have the points to take it.

so either you take aura mastery and need to take it, or you don't take aura mastery and then you can't take it.

[Eurytos]

and how does this make sense to you?

In reality I'm not raiding with either one because their gear is probably not overall suited for ICC 25, but in regards to the 2 hypothetical rets we are talking about, I am more likely to believe a ret with MoT knows more about his class than the one with NES. Simply because the large majority of Rets that have NES also have the Ashen Str ring, or are also using Banner of Victory and genrally have no fucking clue about their class. Much less do they have the abiltiy to explain to me that NES is in fact an upgrade, albeit slightly.

Basically, its a trap. I would start to ask them why they have a trinket with Arp, followed by a few more questions to see how much they really know. Majority of the time they have no clue. If indeed they know what they are doing, well, they would be the scant few that know more than they give off by wearing such a trinket.

[DaGhostDS]

taking or not taking divine intellect is completely up to the raid utility the paladin wants to bring. in the case of aura mastery, it is the only logical choice, out of 2 healing talents and 1 PvP talent. in the case of the 5/7/59 spec, you don't have the points to take it.

so either you take aura mastery and need to take it, or you don't take aura mastery and then you can't take it.

the 2 other talents are better then 250 mana fully buffed, you know a lot of fight where you need that?
-now +healing is actually useful on Dreamwalker and when someone is about to die (BoP on cd already)
-fear and disorient, tremor totem might have just pulsed, the fear will be over when it pulse again
1sec is 1sec

[crabmousse]

is 250 mana all you get from it? ???

I took it because I always go /oom in daily heroic but if it's that useless I'll spec elsewhere

[Riek]

is 250 mana all you get from it? ???

I took it because I always go /oom in daily heroic but if it's that useless I'll spec elsewhere

I took it so that I can benefit slightly more from my divine pleas and that i have bigger "mana limit" to spam my DS...

and I think I look cool with more mana than any other ret pallies!!

[IronRabbit]

In reality I'm not raiding with either one because their gear is probably not overall suited for ICC 25, but in regards to the 2 hypothetical rets we are talking about, I am more likely to believe a ret with MoT knows more about his class than the one with NES. Simply because the large majority of Rets that have NES also have the Ashen Str ring, or are also using Banner of Victory and genrally have no fucking clue about their class. Much less do they have the abiltiy to explain to me that NES is in fact an upgrade, albeit slightly.

Basically, its a trap. I would start to ask them why they have a trinket with Arp, followed by a few more questions to see how much they really know. Majority of the time they have no clue. If indeed they know what they are doing, well, they would be the scant few that know more than they give off by wearing such a trinket.

Let's keep in mind that a lot of the people who read these sorts of threads for advice are some combination of a) new 80s, b) non-raiders, c) poor, and d) unsure of paladin class dynamics.

I will stipulate that there are many, many better Ret trinket choices than NES - the OP points out two that don't take raiding to get. I used both of them for a long time (and in fact just dropped my DMC-G a few weeks ago). That being said, the DMC still costs 4000g and up on many if not most servers. The cost may be prohibitive for a lot of players. MoT is 40 emblems, and if you don't have lesser emblems saved up, you have to use Triumph. I would have a really hard time justifying burning 40 Triumph on an ilvl 200 item if I were still actively gearing up from these (Let's see, do I take T9 gear or an old trinket?)

NES, for any fault it may have, is "free" and available in easily accessed content. Yes, ArP is a terrible, no-good, very bad stat for Rets, and if ArP was all it did, the discussion would end there. But the NES still gives you 114 crit, which is nothing to sneeze at for a player who can't afford a DMC and can't/won't spend 40 Triumph on MoT. And it's not like the ArP makes your character worse or something.

Now the person who falls into this category may or may not be one that you would want to raid with. That's your call completely. I will concur that someone in the categories above doesn't need to be in ICC 25.

How about we rephrase this so that we can all be happy: Needle Encrusted Scorpion buffs ArP, which is a poor Ret paladin stat. It should be used only if one of the many better options is not available to you. If your buddy the fury warrior is with you on the PoS run, let him have the trinket. In general, Ret paladins should never choose gear with ArP if another choice is available with a better stat.

[Throrion]

Outright labeling some professions as "unacceptable" is a bit harsh. Sure, if you're min-maxing BS/JC is the maximum DPS increase, but I for one am running with blacksmithing/mining because the professions go well together, and my guild (which is pretty srs, 6 hardmodes down in ICC25) agrees that the DPS gain from min-maxing professions is too marginal to be an absolute requirement.

E.g., unless you're crazy about having every single little point of damage you possibly can squeeze out of your character, it's really not worth leveling an expensive profession all the way to 450 for some mediocre DPS gains.

[belfpala]

Outright labeling some professions as "unacceptable" is a bit harsh. Sure, if you're min-maxing BS/JC is the maximum DPS increase, but I for one am running with blacksmithing/mining because the professions go well together, and my guild (which is pretty srs, 6 hardmodes down in ICC25) agrees that the DPS gain from min-maxing professions is too marginal to be an absolute requirement.

E.g., unless you're crazy about having every single little point of damage you possibly can squeeze out of your character, it's really not worth leveling an expensive profession all the way to 450 for some mediocre DPS gains.

Most serious raiding guilds I know of do require min/maxed professions, but that's unimportant. The DPS upgrade is marginal. It'll be washed out by RNG and the mechanics of different fights. But, I bet you have epic gems and the best enchants on your gear, right? Each of those upgrades is marginal from the next lower one. I also bet you flask and use haste pots. So why do you bother spending the extra money? Because many marginal upgrades together can add up to something more than marginal. Just something to think about.