LK25hc a 'lackluster' design according to Stars.

[Waterisbest]

Um, I'm agreeing with you?

Yes, I know, the question was directed at Stars

Sounds like they are mostly commenting on the mechanics of the fight being a little uninteresting and too similair to the normal mode rather than actually complaining about the difficulty in defeating the encounter.

Even if it was in perfect English you can't say for sure what they are suggesting and since it's a poor translation it's even harder to know what theyreally mean.

Fight mechanics don't change a lot in heroic mode. OS+3d and FF are exceptions. Most of the hms are more hp/dmg with a few added spells. If Blizzard makes every hardmode completely different from normal, then they can just add another fight. Having two COMPLETELY different mechanics for the same fight is stupid from the company and even the player's PoV. Of course exceptions can be made.

Look at Yogg+0 (Stars world 1st kill), it had everything similar to yogg+1 with the exception of adds not dieing in the last phase. But when Stars got the world 1st on it, it became as awesome fight according to them, whereas LK which has a lot of new mechanics (phase by phase) is 'lackluster'. Very strange.

According to some members of Ensidia Mimiron hm is the toughest fight in WoW, according to Stars it's Yogg+0 and Paragon says LK hc. What is the one thing that is common between all those kills? They were the respective guilds world 1st.

It looks like that an end game guild deliberately tries to bring down the guild(s) that has gotten a kill before them. Just read the bottom OP, where Stars say that don't need titles or that sort of things. Who asked them to have titles or those things?

not tryin to seem like a dick or downgrade paragon's world first or nothin, but some of the people ive talked to that have attempted the fight say that it is not so much that the mechanics are that difficult, but that they are way over tuned. i havent experienced it myself so i cant say first hand, but its wat ive heard.

I have heard the exact opposite. People are the saying it is over tuned while being extremely tough. I remember Exodos saying in one of their videos, that LK25hc is the toughest fight they have seen in WoW.

LK Heroic is hard because of the massive amount of health he has. Because it requires so high DPS you need to min/max your raid comp as much as possible (ie. atleast 5 palas & as much warlocks as possible) thus causing problems to some guilds because it isn't doable with a bad raid comps like rest of the WotLK hard modes are. My guild for example is unable to defeat HC Lich King because we only have 2 paladins in our guild and we are unable to make an optimal raid comp for it. Heroic Lich King is hard but it's also extremely stupid encounter because it's design is different to what we've used to in WotLK. Even most of the top guilds are struggling with recruiting good enough players that are playing the right class right now. If you read Paragon's tactic guide you can most likely see that the encounter isn't that complicated compared to normal mode. What makes it difficult is the amount of health and damage he has - nothing else.

So yes. The encounter is both hard and lackluster.

Every end game fight has been the same way. Are you saying that LK25hc is lackluster because guilds need to get the best composition in order to defeat him while previous fights like Mu'ru, Kil'jaedan, Illidian, Kael'thas didn't? All of those fights required far more optimal composition then LK25hc. See all the Lk25hc kills. Every guild has a very different raid composition. The fight's raid composition is far more flexible then any TBC end raid fight.

Yes, it requires too high dps. Were you expecting him to be as easy dps race?

A lot of tough fights have been lackluster. As a matter of fact, most hard fights have been lackluster.

Hard fights =/= Fun fights. Some exceptions are there like Kael'thas, FF, those are very rare.

LK25hc is very different from LK25normal. Of course the basics are the same, but there are added mechanics which need to be taken care. The fight is hardly lackluster. It is also the most tough fight ever.

@Offhand

You seem to completely hate WotLK, not matter what. It's like you didn't like the fact that Blizzard made it more open to casuals. But that is not my concern.

You are supporting stars and you asked me a question. Now I will ask you the same question,

Have you even tried the fight? Even on normal?

[Waterisbest]

the lackluster design is in the zone buff,
It's an easy cheap way to make the fight "hardest" in game, overtune it with knowledge that it will eventually be killable whether it's with 5% zone buff, 10% zone buff or 30%...

yes there are skill elements to the fight, but if skill was the major c#ckblocker in this fight more guilds would have killed it before the 10% buff and even before the 5% buff, because they would have overcome the skill issues earlier with practice.

LK heroic is the hardest fight not because of skill requirements, but because of the gearcheck/zonebuffcheck.

So you're saying that the fight does not need skill? But only gear.

If that is the truth, why haven't we seen more kills? Guilds are now loaded in ilvl277 gear, there is a 10% raid buff, there are 3 kill videos out, and there is Paragon's strategy guide. Every guild have every element they need to get him down. But why haven't they? The only thing I can think off is skill.

[Gilian]

Ofcourse it's lackluster. They killed him on normal 10 times already if not more. So the only obstacle is one new mechanic and one new phase wich are not hard to master especially for guilds like Stars. The only hard thing for them about it is the damage they have to produce to get him down.
The tactic paragon posted was all about getting as much dps on LK himself as possible by moving him in the best way possible to not lose dps and soaking up spirits so they could keep on dpsing LK. It is still hard to get that done, but as they stated in your quotes it's only hard because of his health and enrage timer. I think that's what they mean with being lackluster (not interesting).

And did you seriously said "overgeared" for LK25 heroic? And having a 10% buff doesn't change the mechanics in the LK fight.

Though, if there would not be a normal version of LK (wich you are forced to do) than the LK25 heroic encounter is definately not lackluster!

Also saying they just trash talk because they did not get a world or asia first kill, please. You could say the same about paragon saying this encounter is super hard and cool just because they got a world first kill. If you think the opinion of a guild like Stars doesn't matter than please think about it again.

P.S. If someone thinks something is not interesting, then that's their opinion. Everyone can have an opinion. I think all ICC hardmodes are lackluster after doing normal mode first.

[Gilian]

So you're saying that the fight does not need skill? But only gear.

If that is the truth, why haven't we seen more kills? Guilds are now loaded in ilvl277 gear, there is a 10% raid buff, there are 3 kill videos out, and there is Paragon's strategy guide. Every guild have every element they need to get him down. But why haven't they? The only thing I can think off is skill.

No, he did not say that.

[RyanS]

3) They over geared the encounter as they had many weeks to farm ilvl277 gear, they defeated LK25hc 26 days after world 1st,

Dude do you understand what overgearing the instance is? Im pretty positive you cannot overgear Heroic ICC since the gear it drops is the highest Ilevel in the game, therefore even in full 277 with a 284 weapon, you would still not be overgearing the instance.

[Waterisbest]

Ofcourse it's lackluster. They killed him on normal 10 times already if not more. So the only obstacle is one new mechanic and one new phase wich are not hard to master especially for guilds like Stars. The only hard thing for them about it is the damage they have to produce to get him down.
The tactic paragon posted was all about getting as much dps on LK himself as possible by moving him in the best way possible to not lose dps and soaking up spirits so they could keep on dpsing LK. It is still hard to get that done, but as they stated in your quotes it's only hard because of his health and enrage timer. I think that's what they mean with being lackluster (not interesting).

The same can be said about every other hardmode. One new mechanic on Yogg+0, which they found very amusing to do while they find 5 new mechanics + new phase on LK25hc 'lackluster'.

And did you seriously said "overgeared" for LK25 heroic? And having a 10% buff doesn't change the mechanics in the LK fight.

Yes, I did seriously say "overgeared" for LK25hc. Paragon did it with 5% buff and most of their dps were in ilvl264 while Stars did it with 10% buff and mostly ilvl277, and for a guild like them, they DID over gear the encounter.

Though, if there would not be a normal version of LK (wich you are forced to do) than the LK25 heroic encounter is definately not lackluster!

I agree with this. Doing normal version to unlock heroic version is a poor addition.

But Blizzard had to make some form of 'attunment' and the fact that when Ulduar was released with it's hardmodes, hardly any guild bothered with them.

Also saying they just trash talk because they did not get a world or asia first kill, please. You could say the same about paragon saying this encounter is super hard and cool just because they got a world first kill. If you think the opinion of a guild like Stars doesn't matter than please think about it again.

Paragon saying that encounter is super hard and cool is looking to the be truth so far since only 6 guilds have killed him yet with all the guides and videos available.

And read what Stars say at the bottom. They look really frustrated.

P.S. If someone thinks something is not interesting, then that's their opinion. Everyone can have an opinion. I think all ICC hardmodes are lackluster after doing normal mode first.

Every fight becomes lackluster after doing it normal mode. The same thing was with OS, Ulduar and TotC.

If Blizzard is going to keep the normal/heroic mode system. They need to add a method so that hardcore guilds can directly go for heroic mode rather then clearing for normal mode and waiting next week to try hardmode. Not to mention these many difficulties bring on heavy gear inflation due to addition of 'heroic' gear for heroic modes.

No, he did not say that.

What did he say then?

Dude do you understand what overgearing the instance is? Im pretty positive you cannot overgear Heroic ICC since the gear it drops is the highest Ilevel in the game, therefore even in full 277 with a 284 weapon, you would still not be overgearing the instance.

Read my comment above. For a top guild like Stars or Paragon, over gearing an instance means asap they have started to hit the BiS gear cap from that instance. The same cannot be said about lower guilds though.

[vesseblah]

FTH and Ensidia said nothing about how they feel about the fight. I couldn't get the comments of the two Korean guilds because their websites are not posted on WoWProgress.com. I went to Stars website (and thanks to google chrome, I could translate it in english), and this is what they had to say:

Try to guess what this comment was before I mangled it through google translation from english to chinese to english...

Congratulations, you have just reached a new level in drag. Otherwise, no one in these forums, as far as I know trying to quit the negative comments on the contents of the current WLK solely on Google Translate.

[mmff4]

Every end game fight has been the same way. Are you saying that LK25hc is lackluster because guilds need to get the best composition in order to defeat him while previous fights like Mu'ru, Kil'jaedan, Illidian, Kael'thas didn't? All of those fights required far more optimal composition then LK25hc. See all the Lk25hc kills. Every guild has a very different raid composition. The fight's raid composition is far more flexible then any TBC end raid fight.

I'm not saying it's lackluster because it requires optimal raid comp. I'm saying it's lackluster because the encounter itself doesn't change much from normal mode and it doesn't feel as epic as for example Mimiron did.

HC Lich King is currently the only encounter in WotLK that requires to have x amounts of right classes. For example 5x Aura Mastery helps Infest healing alot. If you don't have 5 paladins it means that you need to take one or two extra healers and that means you can't beat the enrage time. Currently most of the guilds are having problems with recruiting (Atleast we do and some of the guilds I've spoken with have these kinda problems too) meaning that these guilds are unable to recruit enough paladins or whatever they are missing to defeat this boss. We only have 2 raiding paladins and we need to go with 7 healers to overheal the infest meaning that we won't have enough dps to kill it until 20% or 25% buff. Currently this game isn't interesting enough and we are losing members faster than we can replace them. We won't probably kill Heroic LK during this expansion if it stays like this.

[Deleted]

Just playing Devil's Advocate here for Stars on the bashing thread...

The way I read it is that they're kindof disappointed that the BIGGEST fight in the entire expansion: The Lich King, Heroic, 25-Man (on pay-per-view) is nothing more than Arthas with a mind-boggling amount of health and all the old tricks from his normal 25-man encounter (as far as I can tell anyway.)

If this is true, then yes, the fight IS a little lackluster. Specially if you hold it up to "Bring the player, not the class" but you apparently need a highly specific combination of classes to get the damage output you need.

It's a difficuilt fight, yes. But as far as I heard most of the other bosses change significantly between 25-normal and 25-heroic and Arthas is 'just' "look at me 103M health baby!".

[LeperHerring]

You have to separate the complexity of fight mechanics from the tuning. At its core LK is really about dealing with valkyrs and defiles, everything else is just fluff stuck on top. What makes it hard is the tight tuning, complexity-wise I'd say it's an average tier end boss.

Given the proportion of the fight that's just fluff and the fact that the hardmode mostly just tightens up the tuning, I can see where Stars are coming from with their comments.

[Halazz]

Look at Yogg+0 (Stars world 1st kill), it had everything similar to yogg+1 with the exception of adds not dieing in the last phase. But when Stars got the world 1st on it, it became as awesome fight according to them, whereas LK which has a lot of new mechanics (phase by phase) is 'lackluster'. Very strange.

The Lich king fight has few "new" mechanics that have not already been used, however the Not dying mobs in Yogg+0 meant it wasn't just about killing mobs.. it was about placement on where they died.

[Keoren]

First half of the heroic Lich King encounter is a reasonably boring fight and I do in fact agree that the hard part really comes from the tuning of the numbers unless your raid consists of special snowflakes in the defile movement or your val'kyrs end up with their threat loose for a bit, breaking shields. It is exciting to overcome these numbers, but that doesn't turn an otherwise disappointing fight into something I'd personally enjoy that much. Even if a fight is challenging, it can also be lackluster. Phase three as a whole is the only phase I rather enjoy.

Possibly I simply expected more lore involved in the mechanics and the hype let me down. Granted, it is still better than any other fight in heroic Icecrown Citadel.

[Ghengie]

Just playing Devil's Advocate here for Stars on the bashing thread...

The way I read it is that they're kindof disappointed that the BIGGEST fight in the entire expansion: The Lich King, Heroic, 25-Man (on pay-per-view) is nothing more than Arthas with a mind-boggling amount of health and all the old tricks from his normal 25-man encounter (as far as I can tell anyway.)

If this is true, then yes, the fight IS a little lackluster. Specially if you hold it up to "Bring the player, not the class" but you apparently need a highly specific combination of classes to get the damage output you need.

It's a difficuilt fight, yes. But as far as I heard most of the other bosses change significantly between 25-normal and 25-heroic and Arthas is 'just' "look at me 103M health baby!".

This is the feeling I have on almost hardmodes in ICC. They are fun, but as 90% of the mechanics have been done for weeks on normal, it feels more like tweaking tactics than actuall learning a new fight. This is from a 10 man strict PoV, can't comment on the 25 mans.

In my personal opinion, this decreases the HM progress experience. We have to get started on LK 10 HM, but I can really see where the critics from Stars is comming from.

[Gron]

Just playing Devil's Advocate here for Stars on the bashing thread...

The way I read it is that they're kindof disappointed that the BIGGEST fight in the entire expansion: The Lich King, Heroic, 25-Man (on pay-per-view) is nothing more than Arthas with a mind-boggling amount of health and all the old tricks from his normal 25-man encounter (as far as I can tell anyway.)

If this is true, then yes, the fight IS a little lackluster. Specially if you hold it up to "Bring the player, not the class" but you apparently need a highly specific combination of classes to get the damage output you need.

It's a difficuilt fight, yes. But as far as I heard most of the other bosses change significantly between 25-normal and 25-heroic and Arthas is 'just' "look at me 103M health baby!".

I agree. The reference is with the Ulduar hardmodes - e.g. all fights significantly changed for hardmodes (Firefighter? Knock-Knock-Knock) and then compare the major villain last heroic mode that is a quick finish from WOTLK team rather than a mastertouch.

[Deleted]

I don't get it. This whole "you don't have world first LK 25 hm achieve, therefore your argument is invalid" crap doesn't make any kind of sense.

OP have you even seen the fight?

I agree with Offhand.... people are way to arrogant themselves nowadays to accept other people's opinions over something they didnt see or never will see themselves. This whole trash over someone getting a world first gets so old, please, it doesnt even matter since the favourites didnt had the same chances in ICC in the first place.

For example:

- STARS getting the patch 1 week after EU/US. This is a major disadvantage despite of some people saying the opposite
- Ensidia's server got manipulated by a fishing macro
- Ensidia got banned, and so they had to expose one whole week

... and probably many more I couldnt think of right now.

God, you can even go and look yourself in the old threads of WF Yogg+0 and WF 25 Immortality - just replace the guild they were bitching about with another one and you'll see how idiotic this whole discussion is.

[Offhand]

Look at Yogg+0 (Stars world 1st kill), it had everything similar to yogg+1 with the exception of adds not dieing in the last phase. But when Stars got the world 1st on it, it became as awesome fight according to them, whereas LK which has a lot of new mechanics (phase by phase) is 'lackluster'. Very strange.

Yogg actually changes when you remove certain keepers. Not only does the fight get harder from a numbers perspective, but certain other mechanics become a much bigger deal. The issue with Yogg 0 is the add management. Not only do you need intense numbers on both yogg and the adds, but a single misstep with the positioning (which doesn't need to happen on yogg 1) ends in a wipe. Lich King doesn't do that.

Your whole basis for the argument seems to be "Paragon said it was awesome, Stars says it wasn't, Stars must be butthurt about a world first because everyone else (except the other guild's websites I went to which didn't included such commentary so in reality, no one else) says it's the best thing ever. You seem to pit one guild against the other so your claim that only one is wrong, specifically because they didn't get a world first according to you, seems a little bit like favoritism.

@Offhand

You seem to completely hate WotLK, not matter what. It's like you didn't like the fact that Blizzard made it more open to casuals. But that is not my concern.

You are supporting stars and you asked me a question. Now I will ask you the same question,

Have you even tried the fight? Even on normal?

WotLK is a bad expansion, sorry. I'd rather play a game that's been properly developed instead of trying to go through whatever version of playtesting they've thrust upon us this tier. I'd rather play a game with more difficult fights and less daily grind (such as TBC). I'd rather have more then two fights per tier be tuned to actual difficulty (and t7 and t9 both lacked any difficult fights, period). You can chalk it up to "casuals" (whatever the hell that means, I raid 2 nights a week) if you want. There isn't much left in the endgame for people who want a challenge, that's a fault of Blizzard's design philosophy, and it isn't getting them any new players to start with.

[sicness]

Yogg actually changes when you remove certain keepers. Not only does the fight get harder from a numbers perspective, but certain other mechanics become a much bigger deal. The issue with Yogg 0 is the add management. Not only do you need intense numbers on both yogg and the adds, but a single misstep with the positioning (which doesn't need to happen on yogg 1) ends in a wipe. Lich King doesn't do that.

Except that everyone gets ported into the frostmourne room and it's completely different than it is on normal mode... how's that not different? That's the primary reason phase 3 is so difficult, because you get no time dpsing the boss, have to avoid even more adds as well as bombs in the frostmourne room, have to kill more vile spirits, AND deal with a ticking aura that is permanent while you're in the room. Tell me how that isn't completely different from the original encounter?

Paragon has said, and it's obvious in their video if you actually look at the different mechanics, that 1 person making a single mistake is extremely hard to recover from. Not just a big mistake, but any small mistake can cause a wipe.

I mean seriously, your comparison to yogg+0 is completely off, since yogg's first two phases are completely unchanged with phase 3 being the only difference while LK has differences in all three phases. So again, your argument that LK is no different on heroic mode is completely silly and makes me wonder if you've even watch a video of the fight.

While the whole thing about Stars downplaying the LK heroic mode encounter can be accredited to them not getting world first it doesn't make it so, but there's also no real evidence against it either. They're the first to claim it's lackluster of the few guilds who have downed it and they're the only ones with yogg+0 world first which has been compared to the HLK so it's easy to assume that a good reason they find it lackluster is because they weren't the first to down it. I'm not saying it's so, but it doesn't take rocket science to see the bias they could have towards not getting the world first when everyone was claiming they're the best guild in the world after they completed yogg+0 when that was unanimously agreed upon as the most difficult encounter in wow at the time. So now when HLK is practically unanimously agreed to have dethroned yogg+0 you can see how they may be biased about it.

[Offhand]

Except that everyone gets ported into the frostmourne room and it's completely different than it is on normal mode... how's that not different? That's the primary reason phase 3 is so difficult, because you get no time dpsing the boss, have to avoid even more adds as well as bombs in the frostmourne room, have to kill more vile spirits, AND deal with a ticking aura that is permanent while you're in the room. Tell me how that isn't completely different from the original encounter?

It's more damage needed and more healing. There's nothing technically difficult about it, just bigger numbers required.

[Memory]

They're the first to claim it's lackluster

That's not correct. Altho I don't use to troll over top guilds websites, I stepped onto some comments by Muqq and he also tones down greatness and difficulty of LK25HM. Oh, wait, I guess Muqq is just poisoned by commies' propaganda like everyone else but Paragon.

[KandyCane]

Honestly, I couldn't care less what they think.

Personally I judge the raiding scene from my own experiences and don't go jumping any band-wagons just because some 'cool' people seem to enjoy that. May just be me being crazy though.