1. #1

    Re-gemming haste. Need help again.

    First off, Thanks for clarifying the caps on a previous post. (1269 Holy, 1012 Disc)

    Please bare with me here... It's all jumbled in my head so It may come off confusing on here. I'm looking at it from a math perspective.. but I just can't seem to figure out the direct comparison between SP and Haste. I'll use easy SP numbers for the sake of easy math.

    To get a 5% increase in Spellpower @ 3680 SP. I would need 184 SP or 8 Runed Cardinal Ruby Gems (23 SP). Simple enough, right?
    At 3220 SP, I would need 7 Gems.
    At 4140 SP, I would need 9 Gems.

    Ok, now;

    1% Haste = 32.79 Haste, so 5% Haste = 164 Haste Rating, or 8 Quick King's Ember Gems (20 Haste). Simple enough, right?
    to go from 5% to 10% Haste = 164 Haste Rating, or 8 Gems.
    to go from 10% to 15% Haste = 164 Haste Rating, or 8 Gems. You get the point.

    So from those numbers... I understand that past 3680 Spellpower, It will take MORE to get a 5% increase in Spellpower than it will for Haste.

    However, what I need clarifcation on is how Haste compares to Spellpower in terms of throughput.

    Sure, I get more from my gem past 3680 SP.... but will I get more towards my throughput?

    Any help would be appreciated!

  2. #2

    Re: Re-gemming haste. Need help again.

    i dont see why you would want to do this comparisation.

    yes you do need more gems for 5% increase in sp then 5% increase in haste
    but 5% increase in sp (at 4140 as you state) is far more valuable then going from say 25%haste to 30% haste.

    you are kinda comparing apples with oranges.

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  3. #3

    Re: Re-gemming haste. Need help again.

    it is also a pointless argument as neither holy nor disc gem haste , especially not quick kings ambers.

    disc soft caps at roughly 600 haste. Anything above that becomes significantly less valuable than an equivalent amount of spellpower.

    I wont even pretend to know what that is for holy though i do know you can treat holy as two different specs in itself. You can go one way for a Gheal centric build which can stack haste more so than the rest of the priest specs and becpme a half arsed paladin or you can go the SP/int route for group healing which is what the tree is built for.

    short answer, your asking a pointless question.

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  4. #4

    Re: Re-gemming haste. Need help again.

    Quote Originally Posted by jonish
    disc soft caps at roughly 600 haste.
    Correct me if I'm wrong (which I don't think I am) but the disc soft cap is not 600 it is 154.
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  5. #5

    Re: Re-gemming haste. Need help again.

    Quote Originally Posted by jonish
    it is also a pointless argument as neither holy nor disc gem haste , especially not quick kings ambers.
    A lot of holy priests at higher gear levels gem haste.

  6. #6

    Re: Re-gemming haste. Need help again.

    Quote Originally Posted by jonish
    i do know you can treat holy as two different specs in itself. You can go one way for a Gheal centric build which can stack haste more so than the rest of the priest specs and becpme a half arsed paladin or you can go the SP/int route for group healing which is what the tree is built for.
    I have very, very little experience with holy in LK but am going to have to chime in after this.. Holy stacking haste for a GH centric build would be for what purpose? Tank healing? Great, for about a couple of minutes till they OOM far earlier than any other healing class. Holy is the very last of the 5 healing trees that should intentionally structure themselves around a dedicated tank-healing role.

    Holy stacks haste to lower the GCD enabling faster renew-spam, and faster PoH. SP/Int stacking is in very early stages raiding where gear doesn't provide enough on its own.

    Quote Originally Posted by Cemetary.
    Correct me if I'm wrong (which I don't think I am) but the disc soft cap is not 600 it is 154.
    There are multiple 'caps,' if you will - multiple threads cover the exact levels. the 154'ish cap for disc is the point at which with raid buffs and BT your FH is at 1 second. This is the bare minimum you'd want to achieve, though more should always be highly valued as not only does additional haste further speed up your longer casts such as penance & PoH, it also speeds up every other cast (and the GCD) when you're not chaining BT by tunnel-visioning shield spam.
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  7. #7

    Re: Re-gemming haste. Need help again.

    I think the disc haste "softcap" depends on the playstyle - whether you're playing mass shield spam, flashheal spam (tank/debuff targets) or greater heal tank heal specc.
    Obviously for shield haste cap will be much lower due to BT and sp is the only way to go for absorb.

    As Holy as far as my last theory crafting information lasts, SP should be ahead, since priests nowadays are kind of forced to spam renews, prom and coh.
    Thing is: haste changes the playstyle and for me, having raided hardcore (so I'm talking about endgame raiding) I never ever would want to drop below ~750 hasterating - tbh I try to get to ~930 since you should be at a gcd of 1.0 with 33,33% haste - in 25 man you should have a shaman stomping spellhaste -> 33,33% - 5% = 28,33% that's 929,04 hasterating or sth to get to that which is easy to obtain with actual gear - btw i gem sp/haste and sp/spirit according to socket color (+ 3x haste JC gem).

    It may not be the "absolute HPS killer" - but you can take more action if the situation needs you to.

  8. #8

    Re: Re-gemming haste. Need help again.

    You're thinking of this entirely wrong. Haste scales linearly, SP scales exponentially. Also keep in mind that a 5% haste increase is not a 5% healing increase and a 5% SP increase is not a 5% healing increase either. This just isn't a good way to compare.

    You're also calculating a 5% gain in haste improperly. The proper calculation is: Current haste% * .05 * 32.79. So if you have 10% haste it's 110 * .05 * 32.79. So 180 haste rating, not 164.

    Either way, don't compare them this way. You need to be looking more at haste sweet spots and SP thresholds. You don't really need more than 4k SP raid buffed for normal modes and you don't need more than 4.5k raid buffed for hard modes. You just don't. Also, SP and Haste scale with each other, so the more you have of one the more the other is worth. Once SP is reasonably high the value of haste exceeds the value of SP.

    In regards to haste sweet spots... there is no spot at 600 haste for Disc. 154 is the PW:S spam cap. 653 is the point where you can get 6 GCDs between Penance casts. The hard GCD (1012) cap is where you can fit 4 GH between each Penance.

    For Holy it's more complicated, you need to figure out what you do to find a good blend of healing abilities. The basic sweet spots are 620, 663, 965 and 1269. Each represents a number of casts between certain spells (PoM/CoH), or how many targets you can roll Renew on.

  9. #9

    Re: Re-gemming haste. Need help again.

    Ok, so what everyone is saying is basically it's near impossible to compare Haste:Spellpower as a 1:1 Stat in terms of throughput.

    It depends on what I'm casting and where my current gear is at. I can live with this.

  10. #10

    Re: Re-gemming haste. Need help again.

    Quote Originally Posted by jonish
    it is also a pointless argument as neither holy nor disc gem haste , especially not quick kings ambers.

    disc soft caps at roughly 600 haste. Anything above that becomes significantly less valuable than an equivalent amount of spellpower.

    I wont even pretend to know what that is for holy though i do know you can treat holy as two different specs in itself. You can go one way for a Gheal centric build which can stack haste more so than the rest of the priest specs and becpme a half arsed paladin or you can go the SP/int route for group healing which is what the tree is built for.

    short answer, your asking a pointless question.

    Holy gems either sp/haste or pure haste once you get into ICC herioc gear.

    There is no such thing as a Gheal build that is viable, Holy light is a paladins main spell and its not a mana hog like Gheal is. Gheal has little to no use and if your constantly using it your doing it wrong. As holy stacking haste benifits your GCD (more renews in a circle of healing cooldown) and your Prayer of Healing cast time which is stupidly long.

    Short response, your posting wrong information.
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  11. #11

    Re: Re-gemming haste. Need help again.

    Quote Originally Posted by zito
    Holy gems either sp/haste or pure haste once you get into ICC herioc gear.

    There is no such thing as a Gheal build that is viable, Holy light is a paladins main spell and its not a mana hog like Gheal is. Gheal has little to no use and if your constantly using it your doing it wrong. As holy stacking haste benifits your GCD (more renews in a circle of healing cooldown) and your Prayer of Healing cast time which is stupidly long.

    Short response, your posting wrong information.
    wrong , i wont even begin to break it down because its a waste of time. I was just giving out info as I have seen and read on these forums of people setting up a Gheal centric build. I have no opinion on the matter and even specifically said it is not what the tree is for and it makes you a half assed holy paladin. People can take that information and do whatever they wish.

    Your talking about the high ends of ICC gear holy will gem haste , thats a fantastic idea and probably accurate to a degree, but completely irrelevant to THIS thread. someone asking such basic information about gemming is obviously not on the high end of ICC so giving him info on gearing choices not available to him is a useless point.
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  12. #12

    Re: Re-gemming haste. Need help again.

    Quote Originally Posted by jonish
    wrong , i wont even begin to break it down because its a waste of time. I was just giving out info as I have seen and read on these forums of people setting up a Gheal centric build. I have no opinion on the matter and even specifically said it is not what the tree is for and it makes you a half assed holy paladin. People can take that information and do whatever they wish.
    The only time I've seen a GH centric build come up in the past few months was about Disc, so please find the posts that talk about a GH centric Holy build.

  13. #13

    Re: Re-gemming haste. Need help again.

    Quote Originally Posted by fabian
    The only time I've seen a GH centric build come up in the past few months was about Disc, so please find the posts that talk about a GH centric Holy build.
    There is some discussion about DF vs SW, that's about all I can think of that he's talking about... The GH centric Disc builds have been around for a long time. I was playing with it as far back as Ulduar when I really started to feel how stressed we were getting as tank healers on Steelbreaker. At most Holy uses GH for Serendipity rotations on Dreamwalker. That's about it.

  14. #14

    Re: Re-gemming haste. Need help again.

    Quote Originally Posted by px-
    I think the disc haste "softcap" depends on the playstyle - whether you're playing mass shield spam, flashheal spam (tank/debuff targets) or greater heal tank heal specc.
    Shield spam is the only reason you take disc priests.
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  15. #15

    Re: Re-gemming haste. Need help again.

    Quote Originally Posted by jonish
    someone asking such basic information about gemming is obviously not on the high end of ICC so giving him info on gearing choices not available to him is a useless point.
    I'm fairly far into ICC =P. I just wanted some clarification as to why I should gem Haste over SP like everyone has been telling me is better.

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  16. #16
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    Re: Re-gemming haste. Need help again.

    To the OP, harky's first post covers it pretty well. You really can't compare SP to Haste directly because the value of one depends on the other, and especially with Haste, on what exactly it is you're doing. Haste ultimately becomes a more valuable stat because it allows you get get more GCDs. When you get to a new sweet spot, getting off one more Renew or PoH between your CoH/PoM cooldowns, it will do a lot more to boost your healing than the SP you potentially gave up to get there. Meanwhile, SP just starts to become overhealing after a point. As the ICC buffs get larger, you'll probably find you need less and less SP and, thus, want more and more Haste instead.

  17. #17

    Re: Re-gemming haste. Need help again.

    Quote Originally Posted by Calendra12345
    Shield spam is the only reason you take disc priests.
    That is unfortunately largely true for 25man raids, but in 10mans, Disc with heavy haste makes for a very versatile healer.

  18. #18

    Re: Re-gemming haste. Need help again.

    Disc gemming haste = fail

    I´ve got 300 haste and in 25 Raids I´m capped all the time. Flash Heal is down to 1 sec with Power Infusion or Ing Enchant on Gloves. Borrowed time not mentioned.

    Just gem pure Spell, great increase of your shield value. Also higher Flash Heals....


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