Demo gearing question

[I Shred D Floors]

Hey, looking for some help in choose what items to buy with my frost badges...

Firstly here is my armoury http://www.wowarmory.com/character-s...ck&cn=Cynthium

I'm stuck with replaceing my hands with http://www.wowhead.com/item=50011 and buying http://www.wowhead.com/item=50243 so i can keep the 4 set bonous, but i also want to replace my belt with http://www.wowhead.com/item=50997.

So I'm asking what you guys think is the better item to get, or should i get none of these items at all? I read somewhere that i should be getting http://www.wowhead.com/item=50975 as demo, but yeh i dunno why?

Any constructive help is appreciated

[Jessicka]

You should be stacking Spirit as Demo as it improves your Demonic Pact raid buff, so maximising the overall raid DPS. I wouldn't go for those robes though, try and get the ones from the Blood Princes, as the Haste is a much better stat than Crit on the emblem ones. Basically, I'd say click my sig and look at my armory, I think it's about as BiS as it gets before heroic modes for Demo, off hand/251 legs aside.

[I Shred D Floors]

You should be stacking Spirit as Demo as it improves your Demonic Pact raid buff, so maximising the overall raid DPS. I wouldn't go for those robes though, try and get the ones from the Blood Princes, as the Haste is a much better stat than Crit on the emblem ones. Basically, I'd say click my sig and look at my armory, I think it's about as BiS as it gets before heroic modes for Demo, off hand/251 legs aside.

So you want me to buy the belt? I can't rely on drops as we use rolls in our guild not dkp.

[Jessicka]

Well drops drop, and those robes aren't all that popular as most peoples Tier are better, so you shouldn't have much competition to roll against, and Blood Princes aren't exactly the hardest boss

Seeing as you already have your 4 pieces, then the belt would probably be your best bet and it is your biggest upgrade.

[maelcrum]

I'm not entirely certain but I believe Demo has you offset gloves instead of pants, so ideally you would want the gloves off of gunship. All blue socket bonus's of 5sp or greater should have a Purified Dreadstone. Otherwise you would want the gear with spirit rather than crit. Our demo lock is pretty good with his toon. I'll post his armory, the best time to check him out is around 8CST because he always switches back and forth from pve to pvp gear.

http://www.wowarmory.com/character-s...d&cn=Zaklothar

[pieki]

I'm not entirely certain but I believe Demo has you offset gloves instead of pants, so ideally you would want the gloves off of gunship. All blue socket bonus's of 5sp or greater should have a Purified Dreadstone. Otherwise you would want the gear with spirit rather than crit. Our demo lock is pretty good with his toon. I'll post his armory, the best time to check him out is around 8CST because he always switches back and forth from pve to pvp gear.

http://www.wowarmory.com/character-s...d&cn=Zaklothar

spirit gear is crit gear in icc (theres no spirit/haste. not alot atleast)

[Warwithin]

spirit gear is crit gear in icc (theres no spirit/haste. not alot atleast)

http://db.mmo-champion.com/i/50172/sanguine-silk-robes/

I has it. Get it.

[Jessicka]

spirit gear is crit gear in icc (theres no spirit/haste. not alot atleast)

Sundial of Eternal Dusk, Sanguine Silk Robes, Circle of Ossus, Greatcloak of the Turned Champion, Bone Sentinel's Amulet. All Spirit/Haste. And I have all but the off-hand. The rest of my off-set pieces I need for Hit, so to say 'not a lot' is a bit off the mark; sure our Tier lacks it, but there's plenty of opportunity to make up for it elsewhere.

[harky]

^ Yeah that.

4p T10 should be Head, Shoulders, Gloves and Legs as Demo. Chest from Princes, cloak from Saurfang, badge belt, off-hand from Sindragosa, neck from Marrowgar, ring from Sindragosa, off-hand from Sindragosa. All haste/spirit. You will need to gem hit in BiS 264 gear, but that makes up for yellow socket bonuses usually needing to be ignored to maximize DPS. The result is higher SP than you would get otherwise gemming 23 SP instead. Don't bother with Gunship Captains Mittens.

[shopkeeper56]

Tier - Head, Shoulders, Gloves, Legs
Neck - Bone Sent Amulet (haste spirit)
Chest - Sanguine Silk Robe (haste spirit)
Cape - DBS one (hast spirit)
Wrist - H10m Fester (hit haste)
Waist - Circle of Ossus
Feet - Heroic Boots of the Mourning Widow / Heroic Plague Scientist
Ring 1 - Memory of Malygos
Ring 2 - Ashen Verdict
Trink 1 - NOT DLFO PotNL, H Muradins, H RotD
Trink 2 - NOT DLFO PotNL, H Muradins, H RotD
Weapons - Bonespike / Eternal Dusk - In H25m, H Dying Light is arguably the best option pre H LK. It will give more haste that H Bonespike H Eternal Dusk, with the loss of approximately 20 sp (including that gained from spirit) and give more stam. Also less dkp cost.
Wand - H Ruby Claret

Gemming sp-hit in yellow sockets

Dont use DLFO as demonology. The randomness of the proc makes it too unreliable for Demonic Pact.

[harky]

Don't give that type of advise. DFO, both normal and heroic will often provide such a large personal DPS increase over Reign that it will completely negate the RDPS advantage. DFO + Spyglass is BiS. With some setups Reign is better, but it's pretty rare.

As far as Frozen Bonespike + Sundial vs Dying Light? You're joking, right?

Frozen Bonespike + Sundial = 1,060.972 SP, 68 haste, 50 crit
Dying Light = 991.019 SP, 131 haste

So before DP you're trading 69 SP and 50 crit for 63 haste. That is a bad trade. In fact, it's a horrible trade. SP is worth more than double the value of haste. If you have say 6 casters, yourself included, that means you think 63 haste beats 110 SP and 50 crit. No. There's no 'arguably', it's not even close.

[angry bastard]

I was pretty sure heroic DFO + phyl was BIS whether you went rDPS or pDPS after it was buffed, certainly that's what everyone else has been saying.

The fact that they both have a 20 second duration means it's 99.999% guaranteed they'll be included in DP since that has a 20second ICD, conveniently enough. You might have an argument for DFO since bad timing will only proc 12sp to the raid, but that's a worst case scenario and only 5sp below reign. Doing the averages I am pretty sure DFO and Phyl both do far better than Reign.

I personally go a hybrid rDPS/pDPS mix because being JUST a buffbot is not why I play the game. If you're comfortable with it, fine, but I like to be noticably on meters, and even if I go that route I still provide a rowdy SP buff to the raid.

[~Thalia~]

Dont use DLFO as demonology. The randomness of the proc makes it too unreliable for Demonic Pact.

Advising PotNL and saying that DFO is too random makes me smile. You've heard about the 100 sec ICD right?

[shopkeeper56]

http://www.paragon-wow.com/forum/vie...t=421&start=10

please read and be enlightened - i wonder if any of you even know how dp works and how dlfo works

[angry bastard]

http://www.paragon-wow.com/forum/vie...t=421&start=10

please read and be enlightened - i wonder if any of you even know how dp works and how dlfo works

I know how DP and DFO works but I never did the math, but then neither did Diivil but like a true pro he included the qualifying "I'm not sure if I would". This hardly counts as explicitly discrediting DFO as a viable rDPS Demo trinket.

Getting back to the math though, I tried doing some. This is just napkin math, anyone feel free to correct this if they spot errors.

44% chance of DP proc during DFO proc/ramp up (20 second duration / 45 second ICD)
Which means there's of course a 56% of not getting DP during a proc at all.
10% chance of those 44% to get any of the increments
(10 / 100 ) x (44 / 100) = 0.044 = 4.4% to have 121sp burst raid spellpower boost
Same number to have a mere 12sp boost.
(50 / 100) x (44 / 100) = 0.22 = 22% of getting 60sp or more added to DP (naturally).
The average proc value will be 665.5 (according to several EJ.com posts at least), which will see 44% use so over time that will be worth 44% of 665.5 / 10
or
292.82 / 10 = 29.282 average demonic pact spellpower boost.

That is of course assuming perfect proc times which won't happen so the actual average will be lower. Let's say there's a 55 second interval between procs, that gives 36% "up time" and 36% of 665.5 / 10 is 23.9

I couldn't find any post that confirmed the ICD of phyl, but they range from 90 to 100 seconds from what I read, which would make the Heroic version worth from 241-268 / 10 assuming perfect proc times.

[~Thalia~]

http://www.paragon-wow.com/forum/vie...t=421&start=10

please read and be enlightened - i wonder if any of you even know how dp works and how dlfo works

I do, thanks for asking.

PotNL isn't more reliable than DFO, because DFO will proc twice as much as the phylactery. Sure you probably won't get the full sp out of it, but the sp you give through DP will be much less "spiky" than with the phylactery.

You will get more sp "on average" with the phylactery but you will also not contribute to the raid for 80+ sec each time. "On average" is a theorycrafting tool, it should be considered regarding fight mechanics. And an icd of 100 sec makes PotNL procs MUCH more unreliable, since the trinket proc-ing at moments when you don't need dps (or heal) is much more detrimental than with the DFO.

As the above poster said, Diivil saying that "Phylactery might be a viable option" is definitely not enough to say that DFO is worthless.

I couldn't find any post that confirmed the ICD of phyl, but they range from 90 to 100 seconds from what I read, which would make the Heroic version worth from 241-268 / 10 assuming perfect proc times.

Phylactery's icd was 90 sec before 3.3.3, when its proc was buffed. Then it gave more sp at the cost of a 10 sec longer icd.

Back to personal preference again, but both trinkets are viable for Demo.

[angry bastard]

Also it is worth noting that according to my math at least, "on average" dfo comes out ahead as the better rDPS trinket. They are both proc trinkets anyway so I don't see how reliability is going to be a valid argument for getting either of them. If you want reliability just stay with Reign/Spyglass.

[harky]

Oy, look, people... you're thinking of this the wrong way. rDPS gearing does not mean purposefully gimp yourself to increase SP at all costs. It means take the route that results in the highest raid DPS value. You are a member of the raid.

DFO beats Phylactery. There is absolutely no contest here.

Personal DPS gain:
DFO = ~860
Phylactery = ~785

To off-set this with SP for rDPS let's say you have 10 casters including yourself, the value above includes DP so that's 9. With an average 1.7 SP scaling that would mean Phylactery needs to average 49 SP higher. It actually averages about 10 lower. This means overall the two would be DFO at ~1340 and Phylactery at ~1,241.

So yeah, pDPS gearing overall? Horrible. Absolutely horrible. You gain maybe 1% of 1% of DPS. Ignoring your personal DPS when comparing trinkets? Just as horrible.

Reign is used as an rDPS trinket when you're in very high end pDPS gear. Which is stupid.

[~Thalia~]

Well comparing Phylactery to DFO is not what I would call gimping yourself.
We just reacted on the statement "DFO is worthless".

For the rest, I agree with you. I often advertised people on this very forum to make a difference between increasing rDPS and maximizing DP at all costs (or I'd still be wearing heroic T9 and IotDS )

[harky]

H-Abacus > IDS.