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  1. #181

    Re: Cataclysm Raid Progression Refinements

    Quote Originally Posted by Xexeno
    Man, this is going to fragment guilds like crazy. There tend to be better and worse players in a 25 man group. The better ones are going to realize that they can get better loot (from doing later bosses in a raid), by just doing a 10 man with the best folks. Sure, they may not get quite as much loot per person, but they can kill more bosses to make up for that, and those later bosses will probably have better gear anyway (and they will have a better chance at hardmodes too).

    Ugh.
    This will happen for sure, wait and see.

  2. #182

    Re: Cataclysm Raid Progression Refinements

    God....


    STOP LOOKING at the item level. Item level is NOT your epeen meter in Cataclysm, Guild Leveling and Path of Titans are....

  3. #183
    Blademaster
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    Re: Cataclysm Raid Progression Refinements

    Quote Originally Posted by Astronomy

    Note: All those 25 man raiders who QQ about getting same loot with 10 man raiders, were you doing 25 man for better epics, really?
    Nicely said !!

  4. #184

    Re: Cataclysm Raid Progression Refinements

    Simple facts :

    1) 25 man raids >>>> 10 man raids in difficulty no matter what. It's simple maths. 10 people are much easier to coordinate and work together than 25.

    2) Encounter complexity in 10 man will always be lower than that of a 25 man unless they dumb down the 25man content.

    3) Gold in wow doesn't matter anymore, so even if a boss drops 100g more for each one in raid (which wont happen imo) it would still be useless.

    4) Unless they make 25 man bosses drop 3x more items than 10 man, 25mans will die. Simple math again. It would be much better for a guild to run 2x10 man raids than 1x25 since people will get more loots MUCH easier.

    In my opinion, what they should do is:

    1) Have 10 man version of a raid available that will drop random - non-tier, low quality epics for those who don't care about loots etc and they just want to raid casually and experience the fights - lore etc.

    2) Have only one version of the 25man raid available. No heroic difficulty and such failed crap. Just one version that will be challenging enough for those who have the patience and will to fight at a higher level. Ofc the rewards should be appropriate to that level of difficulty.

    This way everyone would be happy. Both casuals, who dont care for items or challenge or anything like that and they just want to log in smash some stuff and log out, and the more "hardcore" who enjoy the most challenging content and they just feel like suckers when they see that the game rewards the same those who try more and those who don't even try at all.

  5. #185
    The Patient Ferel's Avatar
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    Re: Cataclysm Raid Progression Refinements

    Originally Posted by Ghostcrawler &amp (Blue Tracker)
    hey guys, 'sup? we're gonna make 10 and 25 mans equal so gear itemization won't inflate so bad and everyone can be happy and it's gonna be great and-
    Forums: WTF BLIZZ U R KILLING WOW GODDAMNITc wut i did thar
    Originally Posted by Ghostcrawler &amp (Blue Tracker)
    don't worry guys, cause we heard some of you like 25 mans so we're putting more lewt in your 25 mans so you get more stuff when you have more people and-
    Forums: STFU L2 GAME DESIGN
    Originally Posted by Bashiok (Blue Tracker)
    And when you see them you'll be all like :O and we'll be all like and then people on the forums will still be all like(╯°□°)╯︵ ┻━┻
    Originally Posted by Bashiok (Blue Tracker)
    CRAAAAWLING IIIIIIN MYYYYY SKIIIIIIIIN

  6. #186

    Re: Cataclysm Raid Progression Refinements

    Quote Originally Posted by Lazertrooper
    It simply cannot be. even if the boss hits twice as hard on 10 man as on 25 man, 10 man is always easier than 25 man. more room to move around, less peopel to manage.
    I'm pretty sure they will design encounters around that, again, it won't be the same raids as we have now.

  7. #187

    Re: Cataclysm Raid Progression Refinements

    cant wait for Cataclysm.. this and every other change this far has been really good 8)

  8. #188

    Re: Cataclysm Raid Progression Refinements

    As others have stated, what reason will there really be to put in any effort to consistently run 25 mans? Achievements? Uh huh.

    I used to raid very seriously. I have nothing against people who don't want to put in >20 hours a week wiping only on the 25 man versions of the raid content, but if they really remove anything but the most superficial differences between 10/25 and 10HC/25HC raids, I have trouble seeing that as anything but what I can only hope to be the zenith of Activision-Blizzard's ingratiation with the wide mainstream. In before (justified) attacks on that statement >>

    Gear inflation is a problem that can be handled differently from complete iLvl homogenization. This is just ridiculous.

  9. #189
    Bloodsail Admiral Seregon's Avatar
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    Re: Cataclysm Raid Progression Refinements

    Quote Originally Posted by sadpandaa
    And another one fails at simple math.

    10 ppl 2 l00ts
    30 ppl 5 l00ts

    LESS ANYONE LUL?
    Whoah - Déjà vu...

  10. #190

    Re: Cataclysm Raid Progression Refinements

    Quote Originally Posted by Tauror
    No, you can't. Because of GUILD LEVELING.
    my point was more aimed at middle of the road raiders like myself, why be in that 25 man guild that makes you hate life because its the only way to get the 25 man loot to do the next Teir of raiding or progress when you can now just make a smaller, nicer guild to develop, abeit at a slower rate than the 25 man "Sword champions of the sword" or w/e you just left, It wont kill "hardcore" 25 guilds like Paragon etc, but I can see alot of the less... god I hate these words "casual" raiders Sloging there guts in the big wanna be hardcore guilds when they just wanna play with friends.

    As you said mind, no big time guild will do 10s for current content. Apart from your fine point about PotT and guild talents, theres also the fact you can get away with alot more slack/DCs/Fail/Bad RNG, stack more Battle reses, have a larger mix of classes and buffs etc in a 25 man raid than a much smaller 10 man, if anything the 10s might punish mistakes alot worse as long as they bump up the difficulty from its current faceroll state.

    Still think its a good change and not the world ender alot of people seem to think it is

  11. #191

    Re: Cataclysm Raid Progression Refinements

    The best change ever made.

    No more raiding with scrubs and people I don't like. No more raiding the same content 2 - 4 times a week!

  12. #192

    Re: Cataclysm Raid Progression Refinements

    Quote Originally Posted by Litemode
    Best news I've heard since the announcement of the release of Cataclysm.

    Strict 10 man Raiding shall prevail!
    wasnt the attraction of strict 10man raiding clearing the content in the gear provided (i.e. 10man gear)?

    how can you call yourselves a strict 10man guild qhen you arent just 'basically' wearing 25man gear as you are now. you simply ARE wearing 25man gear, just getting it slower than a guild that runs 25man content.

    the attraction of different raid sizes should be mechanic and playerskill based, where losing 1 player drastically affects your raid.


    OT:this whole thing makes very little sense. players who invest a lot of effort into this game will be reduced to a 1/2 day raiding week without 10mans, coupled with shit gating again. i cant grasp how someone came up with the idea of ' lets make this game more fun by making people play less'

  13. #193

    Re: Cataclysm Raid Progression Refinements

    Unlike today, 10- and 25-player modes of a single raid will share the same lockout.
    We're designing and balancing raids so that the difficulty between 10- and 25-player versions of each difficulty will be as close as possible to each other as we can achieve. That closeness in difficulty also means that we'll have bosses dropping the same items in 10- and 25-player raids of each difficulty.
    What.. The.. F...

    Bye 25man raiding.
    No, extra loot-per-raider wont change that. No, extra challenge of managing 25 people wont make it any "cooler" if reward and difficulty is exactly the same. Extra gold? Don't make me f'n laugh >.< Nobody even care about gold in this game not to say raid for it, it is stupid.

    Also 10man ans 25 separate lock provided many players with additional option to raid besides prime guild raid time, because simply they want to play more than that and to play with a different group of people, a closer group of friends usually, but they dont wanna just shift to 10man tier completely. This is bullsh*t i tell you.

  14. #194

    Re: Cataclysm Raid Progression Refinements

    Quote Originally Posted by Rambear
    Great changes.

    1) No longer have to farm the same instance twice/four times (ToC anyone). More like TBC raiding then anything else, hopefully Blizz will pull through on difficulty levels beimng adjusted.

    2) Item inflation byebye. Now they needed 232-245-258 for one instance (251-264-277 for ICC). Now, we will only see two levels of items. Problem was that gear from the last tier was being replaced way fast, with limited badges, and relatively little difference in gear in the new set-up we won't face silly stuff such as chill of the Throne/Sunwell Radiance.

    3) People can play the format they like.

    4) Drops the silly format of hardcore guilds running 10mans first to get the ropes of a fight etc (and gear up from it aswelll I reckon), before tackling the 25man version.

    I can see how people are afraid of 10mans giving the same gear, but I think the real challenge will remain in 25mans anyway, but now 25man guilds won;t overgear 10man content (making server firsts 10man cooler), and a 10man player can more easily switch to a 25man guild (making recruiting easier).

    I am stoked, shame that other people have to worry about their epeen (higher ilevel zomg for 25man raiders!!!!!) being taken away.

    This is overall 10 man rankings:
    http://www.guildox.com/go/g.asp?a=2&r=&w=

    This is 10 man only rankings:
    http://www.guildox.com/go/g.asp?a=2&s=1&r=&w=

    Notice the gap? Add more difficulty in 10 man, gap increases, most of the current 10 man guilds will vanish since they're not exactly guilds, just too lazy to organize. The upside, there will be more 10 man guilds focused solely on 10 man, downside, free 10 man loot is gone, after the first 1-2 bosses in instances, a lot harder to get decent people to PuG (why would I bother taking my alts to a 10 man when I can get 15 guildies and 10 randoms and destroy 25 man?). I for one welcome the bonus of not having to play 8 instances for 4 characters every week (or a retarded 14 in TotC).

  15. #195

    Re: Cataclysm Raid Progression Refinements

    Very nice change. I won't have to force myself running the same instance twice to get the most badges/loot out of my raid lockout period AND no more having to carry ~10 people who don't know how to raid. Can't wait for Cataclysm!

  16. #196

    Re: Cataclysm Raid Progression Refinements

    Bleh bleh bleh bleh and bleh, read the post few times to be sure what I was reading. Nice 1 lockout for a raid, pure sh**. When a raid will be on a farm and you clear it in 1 night, then you can't do anything more for the next 6 days. Casuals will be happy even more. Oh right I was forgetting they claimed there will be more raids with the same iLvL's gear with few bosses, well, hardcore guilds will clear them all in 1 night too. Cool after 3-4 night on progressing in a 25-man and you want to go and relax in a 10-man, you can't. Well at least it won't happen soon since raids will be on progress and top/hardcore guilds will rush as much as possible, oh wait, I forgot about gating content. But wait I'd be happy about 25-man bosses drop more loots rather than 10man and GOLDZ AND EMBLUMZ!!111!
    But I'd thanks Blizzard because now I can raid in summer with people on vacation 10-mans and still get the same loot as I'd raid 25-mans. Again Blizzard think this game is about loot and totally forget that out there there are serious raiders that wait a new istance to see new bosses, racing against others to get first kills and so on, but no of course they don't care.
    Real tanks don't use that foo foo magic stuff...we use steel and harsh language.

    My faith in humanity before WotLK : ------|---
    after : -|--------

  17. #197
    MAN. Mest's Avatar
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    Re: Cataclysm Raid Progression Refinements

    I really, really like this.

    Why?

    Because, 25-man raids are not really more difficult than 10-mans, but have vastly superior gear. In other words, whoever has access to 25-man raids will outgear 10-mans while/before progressing it. In 25-mans, it's also much easier to get carried, effectively turning some bad players into well geared players and some other good players into lesser geared players.

    25-man raiding will (hopefully) still be desireble as you get more rewards in terms of badges and gold, there may even be rewards from the upcoming revamped guild system.

  18. #198

    Re: Cataclysm Raid Progression Refinements

    Dont like it at all, i run both 10 and 25man with separated groups.

  19. #199

    Re: Cataclysm Raid Progression Refinements

    Looks like I'll have a lot less to do in Cataclysm since I only log in to raid anymore.

    On the other hand this will probably mean the big competitive guilds will be running 10 alt runs per week... (some are close already!)

    Maybe I'll be rolling a third character to fill in the gap who knows.

  20. #200

    Re: Cataclysm Raid Progression Refinements

    My first instinct was not to like this. But, then i thought, 'Hey, this is the a way to make 10 content actually matter." On top of that, it mostly gets rid of the 'overgearing' problem we have right now. Right now, we have people walking into 10 man ICC in 245 gear, face rolling it, getting geared from it and then taking on 25m. By the time a lot of hard core players reach encounters they overgear the encounter and thus it's easy. Sure, I'd like to see these same people who claim ICC is so easy walk in there at a 4700-4800GS (i.e. 232 gear nearly exclusively) and do so well. It won't happen.

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