1. #2021

    Re: Cataclysm Raid Progression Refinements

    Quote Originally Posted by Ksmota
    My point was that if guilds are capable of clearing 11/12 HMs in 3 hours, then you should be able to faceroll your way through normal modes in the same time or less. And there are "casual" raiding guilds that raid 2 nights a week and have cleared 10-11/12 HMs at this point, so what's your excuse?

    Not having enough time to raid is just an excuse for people who want everything handed to them on a silver platter. You can clear both ICC 10 and 25 in less than 5 hours now. If you can't find 5 hours a week to play this game, then why are you playing it? Sorry, but that excuse just doesn't cut it anymore. People who can't find more than 1-2 hours a week to raid have no business raiding.

    Now I'm guessing you'll probably cry along the lines of, "I pay $15/month so I have the right to see HARD MODE content" when, in reality, that content was designed for the serious raider. Not the 1 hour a week casual superstar. Normal mode is their kingdom.

    And the typical person plays this game more than your average casual apologist thinks.

    Exactly.

    I also don't understand there are people willing to pay $15 for 4 hours playing a game for years. Maybe they even bought a mount for $25 they can look at for those 4 hours .

  2. #2022

    Re: Cataclysm Raid Progression Refinements

    I think if figured out solution for current situation.
    Normal feeds allow you to play max 10 h per week.
    Double that you can play as much you want, and those money are used to make separate hard mode content.
    Or you need to pay more to play hard mode content.

    I am ready to pay that, if that meens more quiality raiding content as hard mode.

  3. #2023

    Re: Cataclysm Raid Progression Refinements

    Quote Originally Posted by Karayne
    No million words required. You don't own the game, they do, hence, this is not theft
    No its not theft its a sneaky price rise to the game, we play less ( No more 10 and 25 man raids a week) but pay the same

  4. #2024

    Re: Cataclysm Raid Progression Refinements

    Quote Originally Posted by Styrka
    So someone put it alot of work in 25 man to gain loot to then go steamroll your 10 man. But the difference there is that they did put the time into the 25 man raids first to gain that extra loot to beat you to it.
    Excuse me while I try not to choke from laughter Apart from the officers, there is no extra effort to raid 25 man, quite the contrary in fact. Individual responsibility in the 25 man format is smaller than in the 10 man format. In 10 man, we can't afford to carry poor players, in 25 man you can still easily do so.

  5. #2025

    Re: Cataclysm Raid Progression Refinements

    Quote Originally Posted by Abkco
    No its not theft its a sneaky price rise to the game, we play less ( No more 10 and 25 man raids a week) but pay the same
    I'm shocked, there's actually a somewhat valid argument in this thread, cookies to you sir.

    However, with the plan to release more raids per tier instead of 1 that u farm on four different difficulty settings, I think it should still be possible to raid just as much. Of course nobody knows for sure, but that's what it seems like to me.

    PUGs are Blizzards version of reality TV, put five random people together in an enclosed environment, and watch as the drama unfolds

  6. #2026

    Re: Cataclysm Raid Progression Refinements

    Quote Originally Posted by Nuveena
    Excuse me while I try not to choke from laughter Apart from the officers, there is no extra effort to raid 25 man, quite the contrary in fact. Individual responsibility in the 25 man format is smaller than in the 10 man format. In 10 man, we can't afford to carry poor players, in 25 man you can still easily do so.
    Well for those ppl to be kitted out in 25 man loot they will have needed to acctaully play the raids in 25 man and THEN go to "your 10 man" and get it down before you. This means they have already at that stage put the time into doing it 25 man right? Can you make most encounters with deaths, less good players, less geared players cause you have 24-ish others that lifts it? yes. Can you do 10 man with 1 less well played and geared player? Im gonna go ahead and say yes. The point Im trying to make here is, for the to come in and steal your server first of a 10 man or whatever they have already spent time on doing it 25 man and we all know 3 or so will get loot / boss out of 25 ppl. So Im guessing they didnt just put one night into it either.

  7. #2027

    Re: Cataclysm Raid Progression Refinements

    Welcome to the World of Casualcraft, where all the casuals get what they want.

    Not good enough to run 25 mans or better yet even organize them?
    We'll make it so you only need to run 10 mans!

    Love welfare gear but desire more?
    We'll give you harder to earn gear doing easier things!

    Can't seem to down even the easiest bosses on 25m because you're bad at spacing?
    Well come do it on 10m where spacing is not an issue!

    Hate how WoW is so "hard"?!
    Give us some more time and ALL you casuals can see content AND kill it even though you don't deserve it!

    Cheers.

    I laugh at all of you that enjoy this change because obviously there are underlying reasons why you want this change to happen but continue to say the same lame shit over and over to justify yourselves. Here are the facts:

    1) You suck at this game, can't get into a good 25m guild, so you complain about your 25m experience.
    2) You're casual, you don't have the dedication or time for 25 mans, so you want the same rewards for doing less.
    3) Welfare gear wasn't enough.
    4) You think "Dedicated 10 man in 10m gear" is the same experience as "hardcore raiders" that do 25HM content when obviously 10m is tuned easier.
    5) You're an idiot that can't seem to see Blizzard is ripping you off, paying more for less, they do less work with a single lockout because they don't need to design more gear(woot 1 set for both 10 and 25 brilliant) or invest in stronger servers to hold the large numbers of 25mans(Laggy Tuesdays anyone?).
    6) You think people are steamrolling 10 mans because they got 25m gear(welfare badge gear anyone?), LOL, they invested time in 25 mans(which is harder), got the gear they deserved to maybe do a little more dps and get a little more hp for survivability, play is still the same, if you're an idiot who stands in Defile, then you're an idiot who stands in Defile where ever you play.



    Subscription ends in 25 days,
    See you guys in a new MMO who isn't corrupted by the casuals and the greed for $$.
    Maybe FFXIV? We'll see.

  8. #2028

    Re: Cataclysm Raid Progression Refinements

    Quote Originally Posted by Styrka
    Well for those ppl to be kitted out in 25 man loot they will have needed to acctaully play the raids in 25 man and THEN go to "your 10 man" and get it down before you. This means they have already at that stage put the time into doing it 25 man right? Can you make most encounters with deaths, less good players, less geared players cause you have 24-ish others that lifts it? yes. Can you do 10 man with 1 less well played and geared player? Im gonna go ahead and say yes. The point Im trying to make here is, for the to come in and steal your server first of a 10 man or whatever they have already spent time on doing it 25 man and we all know 3 or so will get loot / boss out of 25 ppl. So Im guessing they didnt just put one night into it either.
    Not really. I was in an kinda hardcore 10 man guild back in Ulduar. We did most hardmodes just with the 10 man loot. At some point, ToC was released and we killed easy the normal modes. When we got to the heroic mode we wiped at the first boss like 35 times before the first kill. Our tanks had like 32k hp buffed and we where watching other 25 man guild with ulduar 25 (some with ulduar 25 hardmode gear) killing those bosses in 10 man easy. They didn't put any effort into that, thay just raided ulduar 25 and went to togc 10.

    So yea, we where a bit disappointed about that. But we also compared our self to other 10 man guild. I'm back to 25 man raiding but I love the idea to go 10 man hardmode and being able to compete with 25 man guilds.

  9. #2029

    Re: Cataclysm Raid Progression Refinements

    Quote Originally Posted by Keo
    1) You suck at this game, can't get into a good 25m guild, so you complain about your 25m experience.
    Maybe I enjoy the social asspect of the game and I like the 10 mans because of that, or that it comes down to more personal performace? But yea, I was never in a real hardcore 25 man raiding guild so I shut up on this one.

    Quote Originally Posted by Keo
    2) You're casual, you don't have the dedication or time for 25 mans, so you want the same rewards for doing less.
    10 man can take up as much time as 25 man if you are not 25 man geared. Easy as that. (Okay, you can have maybe lesser slackers and DC's in 10 then in 25 man so can can go faster, blame 10 man for that.)

    Quote Originally Posted by Keo
    3) Welfare gear wasn't enough.
    euh?

    Quote Originally Posted by Keo
    4) You think "Dedicated 10 man in 10m gear" is the same experience as "hardcore raiders" that do 25HM content when obviously 10m is tuned easier.
    Try Ulduar 10 man, some bosses are harder. But also Blizzard said that they want to close the gap more between 10 and 25 man in diffuclty

    Quote Originally Posted by Keo
    5) You're an idiot that can't seem to see Blizzard is ripping you off, paying more for less, they do less work with a single lockout because they don't need to design more gear(woot 1 set for both 10 and 25 brilliant) or invest in stronger servers to hold the large numbers of 25mans(Laggy Tuesdays anyone?).
    It's still cheaper then buying every month a new game :P If you don't like it then leave it. They are also promoting more and more alt raids so the servers will maybe get even more bussier because of that (more raid locks, more overall raids).

    Quote Originally Posted by Keo
    6) You think people are steamrolling 10 mans because they got 25m gear(welfare badge gear anyone?), LOL, they invested time in 25 mans(which is harder), got the gear they deserved to maybe do a little more dps and get a little more hp for survivability, play is still the same, if you're an idiot who stands in Defile, then you're an idiot who stands in Defile where ever you play.
    Gear is not everything, easy as that. But please please please try ToGC 10 man with Ulduar 10 hardmode and a few items from ToC10... your tanks will get one shotted by the first boss. Some encounters are just an gear check.

  10. #2030

    Re: Cataclysm Raid Progression Refinements

    Keo here has a point, kinda.

    I can't imagine myself and my guild progressing on 10m. How can we even call this progress? I could yell on trade and find 9 random ppl and we could kill things at 10m and end up with same gear that you can get with 25m. The only difference is. You will get it slower than on 25m. Thats destroying the whole PvE idea of this game. Thats even destroying the idea of "The Guild" since you won't need it to actually go into instance and kill something. To make it more ironic. All the changes regarding Guild in Cata will be kinda worthless since having a guild will not be needed anyway. It's nice to have in one place ppl with which wana raid. But 20m guilds are like what? Blizzard made top 20ppl that will contribute to the guild. So in Cata, everyone in guild will since the guilds wont be bigger than 20m I suppose. There will be nothing in 25m instances that will attract ppl to do them since it's all the same on 10min. The image of raid for me is lost. Once you needed 40 people to kill Ragnaros, now You will need 10ppl to defeat Deathwing.

    I do not like this change, at all.

    ps. sorry for bad english

  11. #2031

    Re: Cataclysm Raid Progression Refinements

    Quote Originally Posted by BuryGnome
    Keo here has a point, kinda.

    I can't imagine myself and my guild progressing on 10m. How can we even call this progress? I could yell on trade and find 9 random ppl and we could kill things at 10m and end up with same gear that you can get with 25m. The only difference is. You will get it slower than on 25m. Thats destroying the whole PvE idea of this game. Thats even destroying the idea of "The Guild" since you won't need it to actually go into instance and kill something. To make it more ironic. All the changes regarding Guild in Cata will be kinda worthless since having a guild will not be needed anyway. It's nice to have in one place ppl with which wana raid. But 20m guilds are like what? Blizzard made top 20ppl that will contribute to the guild. So in Cata, everyone in guild will since the guilds wont be bigger than 20m I suppose. There will be nothing in 25m instances that will attract ppl to do them since it's all the same on 10min. The image of raid for me is lost. Once you needed 40 people to kill Ragnaros, now You will need 10ppl to defeat Deathwing.

    I do not like this change, at all.

    ps. sorry for bad english
    Worse is you dont even need to plan what classes you have... I mean its all pretty much the same today. Everyone can do everything.
    Im wondering though since you brought up "guild efforts" wherent there suppose to be this big focus on guild lvling? how will that look between a 20 man guild and a 40+ man guild...

  12. #2032

    Re: Cataclysm Raid Progression Refinements

    Quote Originally Posted by BuryGnome
    Keo here has a point, kinda.

    I can't imagine myself and my guild progressing on 10m. How can we even call this progress? I could yell on trade and find 9 random ppl and we could kill things at 10m and end up with same gear that you can get with 25m. The only difference is. You will get it slower than on 25m. Thats destroying the whole PvE idea of this game. Thats even destroying the idea of "The Guild" since you won't need it to actually go into instance and kill something. To make it more ironic. All the changes regarding Guild in Cata will be kinda worthless since having a guild will not be needed anyway. It's nice to have in one place ppl with which wana raid. But 20m guilds are like what? Blizzard made top 20ppl that will contribute to the guild. So in Cata, everyone in guild will since the guilds wont be bigger than 20m I suppose. There will be nothing in 25m instances that will attract ppl to do them since it's all the same on 10min. The image of raid for me is lost. Once you needed 40 people to kill Ragnaros, now You will need 10ppl to defeat Deathwing.

    I do not like this change, at all.

    ps. sorry for bad english
    No offence, you do notice that you are making all your points based on the assumption that 10 ppl raids won't ever be as challenging as 25s? There won't be anymore 9 ppl picked from Dalaran, cause it will be the "9 ppl carefully recruited into your 10 man guild" that will be able to bring you same success that "24 ppl carefully recruited into your 25 ppl guild" can bring.

  13. #2033

    Re: Cataclysm Raid Progression Refinements

    On my realm Pugs can clear 10/12 icc25 on normal. That makes me believe. There will be 9 ppl picked up from trade. Also, leaving behind 25m as prio will kinda make this game from Great Game it used to be 'just another mmo'. Since all that made this game great will just fade away. Somehow I think it's made by all those people leaving wow project over the years.

    @cerbul
    Do you know how this will work? Let me tell You. When you have exacly the same events on 25m and 10m. The only reason that 25m wont be challenging is because those instances will be designed for 10m. Same thing with more ppl in 90% cases wont be harder at all. What they can do? More HP/hiting harded? They said mechanics will work same on 10 and 25m. So that leaves, as I said - only HP and boss hiting strogner.

    Correct me if Im wrong. Please.

  14. #2034

    Re: Cataclysm Raid Progression Refinements

    Why dont they just put a gearcap on 10 mans so you cant enter 10 mans with your 25 man gear, solves it all !

  15. #2035

    Re: Cataclysm Raid Progression Refinements

    Quote Originally Posted by Mcdrock
    Why dont they just put a gearcap on 10 mans so you cant enter 10 mans with your 25 man gear, solves it all !
    People will get naked before entering, gear up inside?

    At this point. Best blizzard could do is just do the same lockout. Gear should be still different.

  16. #2036

    Re: Cataclysm Raid Progression Refinements

    Quote Originally Posted by Nexiuz
    Maybe I enjoy the social asspect of the game and I like the 10 mans because of that, or that it comes down to more personal performace? But yea, I was never in a real hardcore 25 man raiding guild so I shut up on this one.
    you're saying that like there isn't a personal aspect of 25 mans at all and we don't know a majority of people in 25 man raids
    Try Ulduar 10 man, some bosses are harder. But also Blizzard said that they want to close the gap more between 10 and 25 man in diffuclty
    please explain to me what fight in ulduar is harder with 10 people the only fight I can think of this expansion that was harder is 3d sarth

  17. #2037

    Re: Cataclysm Raid Progression Refinements

    Quote Originally Posted by cerbul
    No offence, you do notice that you are making all your points based on the assumption that 10 ppl raids won't ever be as challenging as 25s? There won't be anymore 9 ppl picked from Dalaran, cause it will be the "9 ppl carefully recruited into your 10 man guild" that will be able to bring you same success that "24 ppl carefully recruited into your 25 ppl guild" can bring.
    I'd like to add that 10 mans being as hard as 25 mans is but a dream. The spacing issue itself is too huge... 10 people compared to 25 makes many fights a lot easier.
    I only see 25 mans scaling down to cater to 10 man difficulty so they can be "balanced".
    Not to mention organizing a 10 man is much easier than organizing a 25 man, why go through all the trouble when you can do 10m?

    Quote Originally Posted by Nexiuz

    Try Ulduar 10 man, some bosses are harder. But also Blizzard said that they want to close the gap more between 10 and 25 man in diffuclty
    It's still cheaper then buying every month a new game :P If you don't like it then leave it. They are also promoting more and more alt raids so the servers will maybe get even more bussier because of that (more raid locks, more overall raids).
    Gear is not everything, easy as that. But please please please try ToGC 10 man with Ulduar 10 hardmode and a few items from ToC10... your tanks will get one shotted by the first boss. Some encounters are just an gear check.
    It was the same in 25man, when my guild hit 25m TOGC our tanks we're getting gimped but after a few more pulls we pulled it off in HM Ulduar gear+normal TOC gear. My point is, a few ilvls higher in gear is not the answer to all your questions when tanks are still getting 2 shot in 10 man togc. It's the ability to familiarize with the dmg and overcoming and anticipating it that wins you the battle. Yes, I went into TOGC the second week it was out and in a few pieces of TOC25M gear but I don't believe ~200 more hp made the difference between a kill or not, majority of my gear was STILL HM Ulduar gear. Though I see the validity in your point, you're pushing that gear is more important than skill and that gear will almost compensate for poor play and that I strongly disagree.

  18. #2038
    Brewmaster Nielah's Avatar
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    Re: Cataclysm Raid Progression Refinements

    138 pages of clusterwhine. Well done!

  19. #2039

    Re: Cataclysm Raid Progression Refinements

    Quote Originally Posted by Keo
    I'd like to add that 10 mans being as hard as 25 mans is but a dream. The spacing issue itself is too huge... 10 people compared to 25 makes many fights a lot easier.
    Not that many fights where spacing is an issue. And to balance that, multiple target control is more of an issue in the 10 man format, basically your tanks / cc people need to handle more targets per person than in 25 man, which is what made S+3 such a pain on 10 man. Also, things like healing is more demanding in 10 man, as each individual healer has more responsibility.

    I can already foresee a lot of QQ threads after Cataclysm raiding gets going about how "they made 10 man raiding insanely hard" when these overgeared 25 man people with an overblown ego get whacked in the face by the 10 man content for the first time in their lives

  20. #2040

    Re: Cataclysm Raid Progression Refinements

    Quote Originally Posted by Nuveena
    Not that many fights where spacing is an issue.
    25HM Saurfang, 25HM Rotface, 25HM Festergut, 25HM Prof., 25HMSindragosa, 25HM Queen Lana'thel, 25HM Princes, ...(tired)

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