1. #2081

    Re: Cataclysm Raid Progression Refinements

    Quote Originally Posted by Fuzzbutt
    Before this thread, I've never heard of a pug clearing ICC 10 or 25 12/12. That is extremely unlikely because of the coordination, skill, gear, and luck that it takes even on normal modes. Saying that pugs are facerolling through LK on normal is just silly. Just because there's one pug somewhere that has done it with a 15% buff doesn't mean that's normal. It's far more likely that the "pug" you're talking about is a guild run with one or two extra people thrown in or it's an alt run from a skilled guild.

    I'm also not saying that anyone is entitled to a kill or phat loots without putting in time and effort. I AM saying people are used to moving onto new content every four months (like they have throughout Wrath) and that is why people are getting antsy. Not EVERYONE should be downing him, but above average 10 man guilds shouldn't be cockblocked by Sindragosa for 3 weeks in a row with a 10% raid buff. That encounter was overtuned for 10 man.

    ICC isn't going to last to Cata. Ruby Sanctum was already announced and there's likely to be another small-scale raid before the end if Cata isn't launching in the next 6 months (which it isn't). Currently, the end content of 10 mans have to be tuned for people in 25 man gear. The change will make it so everything is tuned for the same gear and everyone will have the same ilvl gear.

    And you're right, cata won't change much. The bads will still get welfares and you'll still be carried by your leet guildies while you're derpa derping around in the baddy welfares.
    You sir are wrong proof ? Shockamos , Grim Batol, before any X% buff did a 10 man PUG to LK, on 25 man ? there is no PUG doing that like they don't even think of it ! 10 man is WAY WAY WAY more easy then 25, no discussion about this.

  2. #2082

    Re: Cataclysm Raid Progression Refinements

    Quote Originally Posted by Ksmota

    2. The only encounter that was harder on 10 than 25 was OS10+3D and that had everything to do with the required group composition early on, not the encounter itself. 25s get the better loot because they are harder. This is a fact. Blizzard has even admitted this.
    So I'm guessing u missed the point where it was stated that they will make the difficulty as equal as possible?

    PUGs are Blizzards version of reality TV, put five random people together in an enclosed environment, and watch as the drama unfolds

  3. #2083

    Re: Cataclysm Raid Progression Refinements

    Quote Originally Posted by Ksmota
    The scaling buff was put in so that people like you can eventually clear it. Nowhere has Blizzard said that every guild should have killed Arthas by now. There is nothing saying "100% of raiding guilds should have killed Arthas at this point in time". That isn't the case. Cata is still months out and the buff is still scaling to eventually help you get a kill. And if you're 7/12 in ICC, then raiding is very accessible for you. You're raiding. How is it not accessible when you're in there every week clearing more than 50% of the instance?
    Don't act like you don't benefit from the buff either. Unless you're playing without or somehow beat the game in January, you'll get welfare kills too. Even Paragon had 5%.

    Anyway, look at all the words you're putting in my mouth. I'm not saying raiding needs to be easier. 25m raiding in Cataclysm will be unchanged. It even might be harder, since guilds who want practice will have to go on the PTR, create alt raids, or wait longer to start 25m. Some hardcore guilds already do the first two, but a lot of people right now learn by doing 10m first while also filling gaps in itemization. Emblem farming in 10m is also out of the game, which could elevate the importance of drops.
    What point are you trying to make because you're surely not arguing about inaccessibility while admitting that you clear 50%+ of ICC 25 every week. What it seems like you're complaining about is the difficulty of the encounters. So what is it? Do you think you should able to clear every boss the first week they're released because that's an entirely different argument. And let's say that is your argument (which I'm willing to bet it is), how is Cataclysm going to change that? Where did Blizzard say that they're going to make every boss killable by everyone as soon as the instance is released? You're complaining about people making mistakes as if Blizzard can fix that. It seems that you want bosses to be easier across the board so that you can kill them when everyone else does, regardless of how much time or effort you put in. That will NEVER be the case.
    No, my point is simply that you are wrong about what the game is like for most people. Take a look at a great server. Now take a loot at mine (also note that I'm Alliance and that our top guild transferred out months ago). If you play on a server like the first one, the game will feel a lot easier because even people in pugs are likely to be skilled, experienced raiders. If you play on a server like the second one... not so much. If you're surrounded by great players, you might wonder why anyone struggles. It's like you're a student at an Ivy League school who thinks, "Wow, learning things is so easy. How could someone ever get a low SAT score and fail to get into a top-10 college? Mental retardation, perhaps?"

    I'm not complaining about people making mistakes in my guild. That's our problem. I'm simply pointing at that this problem is more common than you think, especially in some places. The opportunity to "faceroll through normal mode in 2-3 hours" does not exist for some people, BUT I'M NOT SAYING IT SHOULD either. Blizz can't equalize opportunity. However, the game also should not cater to those who have the best opportunities, like it did in the days of 40m Naxx.

    It's amazing how many people are arguing that raiding is inaccessible when their argument revolves around their inability to clear the entire instance and how they want BiS loot, both of which have nothing to do with accessibility. :
    I dunno man. Your words, not mine.

    Let me repeat my actual points:
    • Removing the ability to do both 10m and 25m for emblem farming is healthy. Just give 25m raiders more emblems and be done with it.
    • Decreasing the incentive for 10m raiders to pug 25m is good. When my guild was smaller, I'd cross my fingers that I could find a Naxx 25 or Uld 25 pug so that I could start to outgear the content I was on. Not good for the game- why not just tune the content for the available gear?
    • 25m raiders will be fine if Blizz gets the numbers right. Giving big guilds more loot per person and a better chance to see a given item will keep the people who are dedicated to 25m raiding in those raids.
    • Some guilds will shrink and some players will switch to 10m because they don't enjoy 25m raiding and just want the highest i-level gear.

  4. #2084

    Re: Cataclysm Raid Progression Refinements

    Quote Originally Posted by skaarrj
    Feeling mandatory is pretty much the same thing. Twisting words wont help support your point. Maximum badge output requirements is to do 10 and 25, heroic daily and the weekly. It will be nice to remove one extra raid. That's 4 hours of time freed up.
    I don't get what he's up to with this- I guess some people just have to resist all change. Until you have all the emblem gear that can help you progress, raiding 10s and 25s is mandatory. Or at least it's mandatory in the same way that particular specs, glyphs, etc are if you don't want to needlessly wipe over and over again. Maybe after a few months the incentive is gone for some, but that's not the point.

    I don't know how someone who plays WoW can honestly struggle with that use of "mandatory". If a rogue in the raid doesn't use poisons, people will say, "Dude, wtf?!? Poisons are mandatory." They don't mean Jesus will come to your house and kill you or the cops will haul you off to jail. They don't mean poisons goddamn equip themselves. They mean it's the best choice by a gigantic margin- but we all know that already :

  5. #2085

    Re: Cataclysm Raid Progression Refinements

    I think it's a great update to the raiding system. I personally like 10-man raids a whole lot more than the bigger 25-man raids.

    I doubt raiding will be as easy in Cataclysm as it's been in WotLK, so I think that's one of the reasons they've introduced this loot-merge, for one.

  6. #2086

    Re: Cataclysm Raid Progression Refinements

    Quote Originally Posted by ramsesakama
    Yet the logistics of organizing a 10 man guild are easier.
    Are you serious? Really? I finally managed to find an ICC 25 PUG the other night that was running at the time of night I play. It took significantly less time to fill 25 slots than it takes us on 10 man to fill 2-3 slots. On Saturday night, for our regular 10 man second night, we lost a healer and a tank, and one of our DPS fell asleep while we were trying to fill those spots and ended up AFKing out. We didn't start our 11:00 server raid until 2 a.m. because it took that long to find three people willing to do 10 man. That involved spamming trade, our private channels, culling friends lists, even calling people IRL to see if they were able to come on even though they weren't in game. We had to fill very specific roles, and make sure that the people were definitely close to being geared enough so we could make sure to nail the enrage timer properly.

    When 10 man works flawlessly, it works very well. I won't deny that. We plow through the first four bosses when we have our core 10 people present. But if someone has wife aggro, or baby aggro, or just doesn't show up, we're in trouble. In the 25 man ICC PUG, we lost a few people as we moved forward. When we replaced them, there wasn't nearly the necessity for forethought. It was basically looking for a warm body that had a GS of near 5000, spec or role didn't matter nearly as much because there was enough to compensate among the other 25 and people could swap specs and the raid composition was a lot more dynamic.

    Though how much of our difficulty in finding people was because most people are already saved to 10 man, I can't say. That probably is a significant factor. We were also already on Saurfang, and a lot of people maybe aren't willing to come in already that far into the raid. But I still suspect it's easier overall to find warm bodies for a 10 or 25, if only because what you're looking for is more flexible than needing two or three specific roles for 10 man.

  7. #2087

    Re: Cataclysm Raid Progression Refinements

    Quote Originally Posted by Tenik
    You sir are wrong proof ? Shockamos , Grim Batol, before any X% buff did a 10 man PUG to LK, on 25 man ? there is no PUG doing that like they don't even think of it ! 10 man is WAY WAY WAY more easy then 25, no discussion about this.
    So you give one example without any proof and I'm supposed to believe that any 10 man pug can faceroll LK? Right.

    Pics or it didn't happen.

    And even if one pug one one realm did do it, that isn't necessarily typical and those weren't trade channel scrubs he was pulling in.

  8. #2088

    Re: Cataclysm Raid Progression Refinements

    An open letter to Blizzard (since I - along with everyone else posting in the THIS WILL KILL 25Ms thread was forum perma-banned):

    I gave it a couple days but clearly you're intent on selling out everyone who played this game from launch and
    enjoys high-end raiding.

    We can all see your long-term vision at this point is to dumb down the game to the point that 10... silly me.. I mean 5..Chimps in a room flinging feces at a keyboard should be able to 1-shot Sargeras and collect Legendaries.

    You've sold out. Worst of all though, you've lost your dignity as game designers which is something many of us
    hoped would never happen at Blizzard - it's truly a sad outcome for everyone.

    Have fun with World of Farmville. For my part I will do the only thing I can - NEVER give you another cent of my money for one of your games.

  9. #2089

    Re: Cataclysm Raid Progression Refinements

    Quote Originally Posted by mac2j
    An open letter to Blizzard (since I - along with everyone else posting in the THIS WILL KILL 25Ms thread was forum perma-banned):

    I gave it a couple days but clearly you're intent on selling out everyone who played this game from launch and
    enjoys high-end raiding.

    We can all see your long-term vision at this point is to dumb down the game to the point that 10... silly me.. I mean 5..Chimps in a room flinging feces at a keyboard should be able to 1-shot Sargeras and collect Legendaries.

    You've sold out. Worst of all though, you've lost your dignity as game designers which is something many of us
    hoped would never happen at Blizzard - it's truly a sad outcome for everyone.

    Have fun with World of Farmville. For my part I will do the only thing I can - NEVER give you another cent of my money for one of your games.
    So stop qq'ing and do it. Plenty of raiders are fine with this and those that aren't now were going to find a way to qq anyway.

    Just f***ing do it already. What are you waiting for?

  10. #2090

    Re: Cataclysm Raid Progression Refinements

    I don't see anything wrong with the game being easier to finish in Normal Mode. There are always heroic modes that 'separate the wheat from the chaff'. Seeing how Heroic LK is still at unkillable for 99% of the guilds out there I am not overly concerned at Blizzard's ability to create challenging dungeons.

    What I find interesting are people complaining about others getting leniency. If you want to distance yourselves from these people you call "bads" or "casuals" do HEROIC MODES and get titles, mounts. Those take serious time commitment and these "casuals" would not dare challenge you on that. The more you complain even after knowing this fact, the more insecure you look about your performance during heroic modes. Not saying that's true, but I am definitely getting this impression from the bulk of you crying over this leniency.

    Right now what separates casuals and hardcores of similar individual skill level is not only time commitment but primarily guild membership. There are various reasons why certain people who are able to perform well don't have a stable guild and most of these reasons are outside of their control. (You have to be delusional to believe unguilded or badly guilded people are all automatically inferior to you). Some examples would be: not being able to stick to a rigid raid schedule due to irl commitments, wanting to solve encounters more than putting up with people issues, unlucky in finding a stable guild that won't die in the next month or they picked a class with a big representation within their server.

    The issue I see here is people failing to give the proper credit to Guild Masters, Raid Leaders and Officers running the show. These people put up with all sorts of stupid crap from people ranging from personal differences & overall guild morale, DKP & loot, scheduling, raid preparation, guild direction and a whole bunch of other stuff most members don't really take notice of. So the average member just logs in, raids and does DPS, healing or tanking and all of a sudden they feel it was their performance that ultimately helped the guild reach new heights.

    This is more of a game of logistics by a few people and not as much about your own performance. As long as the Raid Leader has the right strategy and call outs, you can be replaced by the very casual player you hate so much or anyone re-rolling/offspeccing for that matter, so get over yourselves. If you actually find this people organizational stuff fun, well guess what ... video games should not be bottle necked by these things and you can't blame Blizzard for attempting to become a game that depends more on raiding performance.

    With a smaller raid size, there will be less reliance on people organizational skills and more on perfecting encounter strategies. Raid Leaders are still required for call outs and assignments. Things like DKP could be a thing of the past with less raid members. The less people problems there are the more confident people will become in starting up 10m guilds and we will see a new era of WoW where more people will be raiding than ever.

  11. #2091

    Re: Cataclysm Raid Progression Refinements

    Yeah, it doenst have to be about whats "hardest" cause its just a game... No one really dies in the end you know kids but I personally like the idea of several ppl, more then 10, more then 20, plays together and makes that work. Thats the thing that for me makes this game worth it. 10 friends to do 10 man with? sure I got that. Infact i have about 30 or so I consider "friends" in this game after 4 years of spending up to 70 hours a week with some of them.
    Another thing I feel sad about is where all the classes seems to become more and more the same. It really doesnt matter much today about set ups. It wont tomorrow either I imagen since we get more cross over abilities. Yeah some guilds struggle to get the right players for the right classes. Our guild always struggled as we arent no1 or 2 on our small server but none the less, set up and all that organising is what makes the game so much more then others.

  12. #2092

    Re: Cataclysm Raid Progression Refinements

    More classes/specs are able to bring same thing to the table for the following reasons:
    1. chances to have max buffs in a 10 ppl raids are increased
    2. the encounters can be tuned more accurately while chances to have max buffs are maximum. This is not a bad thing at all to be honest.

    About the 10/25 loot being the same and making "same" difficulty (compensating whichever way to make the statistics look the same for one particular boss for both 10 and 25 modes), we already moved away from the "joy" of killing a boss for the first time with WotLK. We don't have that joy sacred anymore, unless we are on the group of baddest players. What scares me here is that in the attempt to make 10 and 25 the same, Blizz will make 25 easyer, and not 10 harder. This really sucks. I really hope that the future use of % buffs into an instance, will allow for a bit harder instances.

    What hardcore wants? They want to be as unique as possible. Mounts, titles, whatever could mean e-peen, to show their skill in this game. The problem here is granularity. If Blizz manage to give a specific thing like mount/title/achievement to a every player in this game, for performing a bit better then he ususaly does, is a win for everyone. So we moved from the "we killed this boss" model, to the model that we won this mount for doing hard modes, or we killed x bosses in hardmode. Killing bosses on 10 ppl is something trivial, no one really cares what is exactly your progress in 10 ppl. And the same might be in Cata for 25 ppl. All ppl care atm is "did you kill last boss?". This is an example of non-granularity for 10 ppl dungeons. Is poor design in my opinion. EVERY player in this game, should have something rewarding for their level of skills. I agree that the granularity for the casual is poor designed, but also for the hardcore. More things has been taken from the hardcore, and at the moment we have like the biggest percentage of the 25 casual guilds working on Arthas, and biggest percent of hardcore players working on Saurfang HC. The % buffs added to the game and the future ability to be able to chose what boss to do hardmode and what boss not, is a good help to this problem, but has a downside. Where are the rewards? Or better to ask, what are the downsides of using the buff? Why isn't there in the achievement a place where it says that we killed this boss with 15% buff? Or shall I take into account the date of the kill and search on the internet what date has the 15% buff being introduced?

    So, as a player, I want every dungeon release to exist something for me to do to boost my ego, whatever my level of skill is. And the 25s being tuned down to match the 10 players model, the "happyness" of downing a boss for the first time gets even more "trivial". So please, gief something in return, to help my motivation stay in place.

  13. #2093

    Re: Cataclysm Raid Progression Refinements

    Please don't say again about classes becoming the same cause is not true..
    This is actualy the thing that Blizzard does the best in the world.
    Finds ALL ways possible to create new abilities (dot, hot, short cd, long cd, hot with boom at end, etc etc like 1 milion models), and carefully assigns them to different classes.
    The fact that more classes/specs can bring the same buff to the table, doens't mean that all are the same. Consider the Blessing of Wisdom and the Mana tide. They are 2 totaly different mechanics behind them, given to 2 different classes, but the final result that gives, is roughly the same.

    Now serriously, you want the pala blessing of wisdom to give you white hair or something to feel unique? Think about it before sustaining that all classes are the same..

    Remember this one: the more constant is the overall buffing value of a raid is, the better quality bosses we will have and more nice we will feel when we manage to down a carefully tuned boss.

  14. #2094

    Re: Cataclysm Raid Progression Refinements

    Something else Ive been wondering about is,
    if your in a 10 man raiding guild and focuses on that, shouldnt 10 man gear be enough to kill the end boss and do heroic mode?
    same if you are in a 25 man raiding guild?
    so then the only reason its so important for 10 raids to be equal in gear to 25 atm is for showing off at the bank in Dalaran?
    The 25 raiders doesnt have a step up but the 10 does if they where to raid 25 man. As it is mostly atm (I say mostly cause one or two encounters arent) 10 man are easier then 25. So sorry for twisting myself in alot of words here why are the 10 raiders wanting equal gear to 25?
    Blizz didnt deliver? arent the gear in 10 made for 10 and 25 for 25?
    What will acctually happen in Cata with the difficulties we will have to see but Im sure I saw a comment about how they wanted the real raiders and real focused players to do 10 and not 25 yet still encourage us to do 25 and not just handing 25 man raiders a bullet. How does that not mean 2 different things?
    Im sorry if Im lost... if I lost the plot... Im easily confused.... no irony... but to me it all seems odd.

  15. #2095

    Re: Cataclysm Raid Progression Refinements

    What are you even talking about. What showing off of gear in Dalaran? Maybe only Heroic mode geared people show off gear and hard mode achievement flying mounts. Gear has become as ubiquitous as possible. And with confirmed "do heroics to get previous tier raid gear, forever" it will remain pointless. Gear is what is used to meat gear(score :P) requirements to enter a raid.

    Only true e-peens left are heroic mode gear and legendaries. Normal mode epics, both 10 and 25 man are just unimportant trash you will replace doing heroics in the next patch.

  16. #2096

    Re: Cataclysm Raid Progression Refinements

    I was talking about the blue quote wich said that the 10 man raiders are let down cause the gear from 10 man isnt as shiney as the 25 man gear is.

    Meta score / GS can suck my hairy...

  17. #2097

    Re: Cataclysm Raid Progression Refinements

    Quote Originally Posted by Styrka
    The 25 raiders doesnt have a step up but the 10 does if they where to raid 25 man. As it is mostly atm (I say mostly cause one or two encounters arent) 10 man are easier then 25. So sorry for twisting myself in alot of words here why are the 10 raiders wanting equal gear to 25?
    Blizz didnt deliver? arent the gear in 10 made for 10 and 25 for 25?
    The fact that 10 ppl raiders are able to buy 25 ppl gear, or craft 25 ppl equivalent gear and get some pieces of 25 ppl gear from a pug, makes the 10 ppl dungeons even easyer, so Blizzard concluded that the 10 ppl content can be facerolled with 25 ppl gear, so they didn't provide titles/mounts/legendaries for 10 ppl dungeon raiders. (though the titles come with killing them with approproate gear, argent and herald, and the mounts have different color).

    Now even if they are trying to make them same difficulty (which won't be easy), they will have to fight other things:
    "how to give legendaries/mounts/titles to 10 ppl dungeon raiders, without killing 25 ppl raids."

    I really want to see this.

  18. #2098

    Re: Cataclysm Raid Progression Refinements

    I'm on the fence about this. I'm a bit worried that it will kill my guild, though once it does I'll have fun running 10-mans with friends.

    On the other hand, there's one change they can make to make me A-OK with this: change raid lockouts to loot table lockouts. If you've killed the first boss of Blackwing Descent on 10-man, you can't get loot off him in 25-man, but you can still run the 25-man with your guild.

  19. #2099

    Re: Cataclysm Raid Progression Refinements

    Quote Originally Posted by awa64
    I'm on the fence about this. I'm a bit worried that it will kill my guild, though once it does I'll have fun running 10-mans with friends.

    On the other hand, there's one change they can make to make me A-OK with this: change raid lockouts to loot table lockouts. If you've killed the first boss of Blackwing Descent on 10-man, you can't get loot off him in 25-man, but you can still run the 25-man with your guild.
    Would still have people killing one version of boss and practicing on another.
    But pure per boss lock out would solve that, and many other problems. End of week, people from dozen failed pugs that killed only boss no1 or no2 join together to continue from next boss.

  20. #2100

    Re: Cataclysm Raid Progression Refinements

    Quote Originally Posted by Asmin
    considering to nerdrage at blizzard srsly....if this 10 man / casual stuff gets throught im so out of here :X 25 death = R.I.P real WoW and totally welcome to Casualcraft
    haha seriously its wankers like you that ruin such games, not blizzard and not casuals but selfish greedy bastards like yourself that seem to think this game and many others was put onto the shelves just for you . Fucking wake up and start to realise its not all about you and the so called 1 sided community you place your self in.
    Dont you see whats going on here? even blizzard dont want this to be a split community so my suggestion is either live with it or nerdrage yourself away from the game like you mentioned because no one will give a shit and neither will anyone come running to your door demanding that you come back to play it because you are the backbone of the game. Come to think of it you are quite pathetic and ive no doubt your not a very popular person in rl with such an attitude towards others.

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