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  1. #601

    Re: Cataclysm Raid Progression Refinements

    Quote Originally Posted by sadpandaa
    To the itemlevel shitfest. Blizzard is just stupid for doing what they were doing.

    What they did:
    Naxx 10 - 200
    Naxx 25 - 213
    Ulduar 10 - 219
    Maly/Sarth3d - 226
    Ulduar/Ulduar 10hc - 226 - Weapons 232 rofl
    ToC 10 - 232
    Ulduar HC - 239
    ToC 25/ToC 10 hero - 245
    Icc 10 - 251
    ToC 25 Hero - 258
    Icc 25 - 264
    Icc 25 hero - 277

    What they should have done:
    Naxx 10 - 200
    Naxx 25 - 213
    Ulduar 10 - 219
    Maly/Sarth3d - 226
    Ulduar 25/Ulduar 10hc - 226
    ToC 10 - 232
    Ulduar HC - 239
    ToC 25/ToC 10 hero - 239
    Icc 10 - 245
    ToC 25 Hero - 252
    Icc 25/Icc 10 Hero - 252
    Icc 25 hero - 258

    see what i did there shitzzard?

    SEE WHAT I DID THERE ROFL
    No, what they should have done is:

    Now:
    Naxx 10 - 200
    Naxx 25 - 213
    Ulduar 10 - 219
    Maly/Sarth3d - 226
    Ulduar/Ulduar 10hc - 226 - Weapons 232 rofl
    ToC 10 - 232
    Ulduar HC - 239
    ToC 25/ToC 10 hero - 245
    Icc 10 - 251
    ToC 25 Hero - 258
    Icc 25 - 264
    Icc 25 hero - 277

    How it should be:
    Naxx 10 - 200
    Naxx 25 - 200
    Ulduar 10 - 204
    Maly/Sarth3d - 206
    Ulduar 25/Ulduar 10hc - 207
    ToC 10 - 209
    Ulduar HC - 211
    ToC 25/ToC 10 hero - 213
    Icc 10 - 214
    ToC 25 Hero - 216
    Icc 25/Icc 10 Hero - 218
    Icc 25 hero - 220

    Something more in those lines, gear should scale slow with very little difference. This way skill will be more important then the gear you are wearing and even blue geared people would stand a chance against high tier people. Skill > Gear is the way to go.

  2. #602

    Re: Cataclysm Raid Progression Refinements

    Vanilla: Introduced raiding with such parties as up to 40 people.
    TBC: Changed the raiding ideology to have different raids set up for some 10mans and more 25man content.
    Wrath: Changed again to where each raid can either be set to 10 or 25 man.

    You know what the same thing is between these is? When they were first talked about, people didn't like the idea (I personally hated having to hear 39 people bitch, complain, and yell), but it was actually liked later on by everyone. So what, they're changing some the ideas behind raiding. They've been doing that since first expansion, quit bitching.
    Signature removed. Please read our guidelines. Venara

  3. #603

    Re: Cataclysm Raid Progression Refinements

    If there is no need to 25-man the content at all, it will kill the need of guilds the second it's effective.
    Even the 40 ==> 25 and then the 10-25 mirroring changes, that already damaged the "MMO" aspect of this game so much, will feel cosmetic after that.
    The epic time of WoW is gone.

    RIP PVE

  4. #604

    Re: Cataclysm Raid Progression Refinements

    Quote Originally Posted by sadpandaa
    We cleared icc normal first week with only toc 10 man gear + toc 25 normal mode (hi @ same itemlevel) with a pug.
    You didnt clear it first week because content was gated. QQ moar.

  5. #605

    Re: Cataclysm Raid Progression Refinements

    I honestly dont get the system with the same lockouts:

    if my 25man guild is stuck on some boss we could continue with a 10man group? and what about the other 15man? nice idea lol.
    Who needs gameplay when you have ACHIEVEMENTS? Don't worry about beating levels, finding ways to kill enemies, or beating the final boss... there are none. Focus solely on your ultimate destiny... doing random tasks that have nothing to do with anything. Metagame yourself with ease! Self-satisfaction never felt so... artificial!

  6. #606

    Re: Cataclysm Raid Progression Refinements

    The amount of people that didn't read it properly is ASTOUNDING!

  7. #607

    Re: Cataclysm Raid Progression Refinements

    lets go and play tibia! where hardcores are awarded properly.

    and where you never run out of things to do

  8. #608

    Re: Cataclysm Raid Progression Refinements

    Quote Originally Posted by sadpandaa
    To all those strict 10 man raidguild shitheads.

    WHAT THE FUCK IS YOUR PROBLEM?

    Nothing is chaning for your fucktards. U had 10 man gear and went into 10 man instances only, meaning the fuckin bosses are tuned exactly for U SHITHEADS. There was NOTHING holding u back in your shitprogression.

    The only reason why u drooling bads are happy is that u can have the same gear as the good players.
    So true.

  9. #609
    Moderator Cilraaz's Avatar
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    Re: Cataclysm Raid Progression Refinements

    For the people who are worried about being bored, I propose that Blizzard makes it so that once a raid instance is cleared in 25-man, it's able to be re-entered (only by those flagged for the cleared instance id) in either 10 or 25-man (same difficulty level so that it's not a heroic training ground), but the bosses drop zero loot, badges, gold, etc.

    There. You can raid as much as you want now, since you raid for the fun of raiding, right?

  10. #610

    Re: Cataclysm Raid Progression Refinements

    For those of you who think this is Blizzard's dumbest decision yet, tell me...

    Did you buy That Retarded fucking Horse?

  11. #611

    Re: Cataclysm Raid Progression Refinements

    I am glad i will be able to raid less and if they can make 10s as hard as 25s i will be very happy as i hate doing 25s my Computers graphics lags me to hell in some 25m situations while in 10 man i can enjoy the art and details of the raids.
    Great changes imo i was planning on quitting after the world events at the end of wotlk now i am not so sure.

  12. #612
    Field Marshal Redjack's Avatar
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    Re: Cataclysm Raid Progression Refinements

    Quote Originally Posted by sadpandaa
    and another one
    2 items 10 man
    6 items 30 ppl guild

    who gears up faster?
    thats ridiculous, or do you really believe that 6 items will drop per boss ? lol

  13. #613

    Re: Cataclysm Raid Progression Refinements

    Quote Originally Posted by domn
    For those of you who think this is Blizzard's dumbest decision yet, tell me...

    Did you buy That Retarded fucking Horse?
    this shit >celestial steed let retards have their rainbow pony

  14. #614

    Re: Cataclysm Raid Progression Refinements

    Quote Originally Posted by Wotch
    Horrendous raid model imo. There will now be no distinction from being a top end 25man raiding guild since all loot will be the same.

    One of my favorite things to do on off raid nights is to run 10 mans but now that is impossible because of the shared lock out periods.

    This is a horrible horrible absolutely atrocious system that just destroyed my off night activities and gives 0 real incentive to do 25 mans.

    So far it has gone from 40 mans because they were too hard to organize to 10's and 25's with different loot to 10 and 25s with the same loot because 25mans are too difficult to organize. The next step is going to the removal of 25mans with 10mans and 5man heroics sharing the same loot.

    /rant
    no it went from 40 mans to specific 10 or 25 mans to this casual gearfest bullshit where you can run the same raid twice. there may not be a clear distinction between 25 man/10 man, but what do you care? raiding died with WOTLK. everyone and their mom can raid now. there is nothing truly that difficult in WOTLK (with the exception of maybe heroic LK). you are not elite unless you have LK on heroic down. back in the day if you raided you were elite. in BC you were elite if you were in t5+. now you're only elite if you have heroic LK (or most of the heroic bosses) kills under your belt. WoW's "elite distinction" died a long time ago and the elite margin has only become more and more specific as the game has slowly opened up to casuals.

    My statement wasn't about "just gearing up". It's about additional, challenging goals with reward. You can gear up on those other 6 bosses if you'd like.
    there is a challenge in 25. you have to coordinate 24 other people. the mechanics may be the same as 10 but coordinating the same amount of people will be still be a challenge.

    reward is heroic loot. reward is faster gearing and emblems.

    I will say it again since a lot of people here are oblivious: more loot will drop in 25. if the ratio is kept the same, you will get gear quicker. there is a 1/24 shot of you having a piece of gear in 4 weeks. JUST ONE PIECE. you may be lucky and get even more.


  15. #615

    Re: Cataclysm Raid Progression Refinements

    Quote Originally Posted by Ricen
    This is completely retarded....
    Casuals have no business raiding imo. The difficulty is getting taken out of this game so damn quick. 25 man is wear gear and progression is at and blizz you are taking that away thanks for killing a good game
    Quote Originally Posted by Doomphoenix
    Pretty sure this is Bizzard's dumbest idea yet.
    There is a pretty good explanation as to why you two only have one post.
    Signature removed. Please read our guidelines. Venara

  16. #616

    Re: Cataclysm Raid Progression Refinements

    Quote Originally Posted by Boubouille
    Cataclysm Raid Progression Refinements
    Cataclysm will change a couple of things to the raiding system apparently. "Too long didn't read" version:

    • 10-Man and 25-Man raids will share the same lockout.
    • 10-Man and 25-Man raids difficulty will be as close as possible to each other.
    • 10-Man and 25-Man raids will drop the exact same loot, but 25-man will drop a higher quantity of items.
    • Normal versus Heroic mode will be chosen on a per-boss basis in Cataclysm raids, the same way it works in Icecrown Citadel
    • For the first few raid tiers, our plan is to provide multiple smaller raids. Instead of one raid with eleven bosses, you might have a five-boss raid as well as a six-boss raid.
    For me, this is a great change. While I acknowledge all of the complaints about this making WoW more casual, I can't say I agree with much of it. For starters, 25-man encounters have never been inherently more difficult than 10-man encounters. If anything, the opposite is true because as the number of participants scales up, so does your margin for error in generally all but the most mechanically challenging encounters.

    The challenge in a 25-man raid is a force that acts upon the game not from within, but from without. The true challenge lies in getting a larger number of people, all appropriately geared, appropriately skilled, and appropriately learned of the encounters to all show up at the same time and act in unison, not in the health and damage numbers or the extra adds.

    [blizzquote="Nethaera;http://blue.mmo-champion.com/t/24401856405/cataclysm-raid-progression-refinements/]In terms of tuning, we want groups to be able to jump into the first raids pretty quickly, but we also don’t want them to overshadow the Heroic 5-player dungeons and more powerful quest rewards. We’ll be designing the first few raid zones assuming that players have accumulated some blue gear from dungeons, crafted equipment, or quest rewards. In general, we want you and your guild members to participate in and enjoy the level up experience.[/blizzquote"]

    This is the part that bothers me. I wanted to see more of the stepladder progression seen in TBC, not the patch-by-patch progression of WotLK. You level to the cap, you run instances and quest until you can run heroics, you run heroics until you can raid, then move on to the next raid, etc. What's the point in designing 10 and 25-man's to have the same difficulty if there isn't any difficulty at all? Quest rewards competing with raid drops? Really?

    I understand that they want everyone to see their raids, but they need to understand that their current system doesn't accomplish that in an all-inclusive way. Yeah, a lot of people can see Icecrown now. But how many people are in ICC and ToC now that have never cleared Naxx or Ulduar? I know a lot. That's good content, quality content, but why should they when it's quicker, easier, and there's better gear available from mass heroic badges.

  17. #617

    Re: Cataclysm Raid Progression Refinements

    So basically this is the next step, from 40 to 25 and now basically making 25 mans obsolete and ignoring the additional difficulty that comes in managing a 25 man raid...

    another slap in the face of those who like the additional challenges of 25 man raiding, and this also makes clear why they are making a lot of classes more or like generic copies of each other.

  18. #618
    Stood in the Fire Nicolicious's Avatar
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    Re: Cataclysm Raid Progression Refinements

    Thank God! I have been waiting for this, didnt ever expect to see this again! Im so happy right now!
    WAY TO GO BLIZZ!

  19. #619
    Stood in the Fire davidwh2's Avatar
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    Re: Cataclysm Raid Progression Refinements

    Quote Originally Posted by domn
    Regardless, difficulty is being brought more in line, so his argument is pretty much invalid.
    somewhat invalid i agree, but my point was people saying how much more difficult 25 mans were over 10 mans.

    since they are bringing difficulty more in line with each other i think it benefits

    10 man - people who have smaller guilds and a more tight knit group of people.

    25 man - efficienty and for people who have huge guilds and/or love having a huge group of people with them.

  20. #620
    Mechagnome Ricen's Avatar
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    Re: Cataclysm Raid Progression Refinements

    Quote Originally Posted by Wythel
    If there is no need to 25-man the content at all, it will kill the need of guilds the second it's effective.
    Even the 40 ==> 25 and then the 10-25 mirroring changes, that already damaged the "MMO" aspect of this game so much, will feel cosmetic after that.
    The epic time of WoW is gone.

    RIP PVE
    OH so agreed

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