Cataclysm Raid Progression Refinements

[Reciprocity]

* This means 10 man = 25 man. A 10 man guild will be able to work alongside a 25man and be properly geared, not an iLevel behind.

* It will be the same loot %, regardless of the raid size. Whereas in WOTLK, 10mans and more often 10man heroic, lead to easier gearing than 25man, you will be grinding your eye balls red just to be 'perfectly' geared.

* 10 man guilds are now viable and can feel confident in their achievements.

* No more separate mounts or achievements for 10/25? Get it done on 10 or 25 and it's done? Simplicity is nice, if that is how this will work.

* I have a 'gut' feeling that we will end up with more UNIQUE (being the key word here) raids. In WOTLK, we didn't have many DIFFERENT raids, we just had 2-4 of the same raid on different versions, which made the game eerily boring. As many of you experienced, it was expected you HAD to do all versions to be invited to most content, unless you ran into the benevolent RL who would allow you into a raid with prior tier gear or 10man gear (rare).

* They want to make ALL guilds viable, not just 25 mans. No longer are 10man second fiddle. With the emergence of GUILD achievements, this makes being in a 10 man guild that much more attractive. In addition, your 10man core can finally do as it needs and succeed without feeling that the 25 man has too many bads hurting progression. In WOTLK, alot of 25 mans had a core that could nuke any content, but would stonewall at certain 25 man content, leading to the attrition we had seen during TBC, too.

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This couldn't be a better thing to happen.

Show of hands:

Who thought (4) TOC versions was "fun?"

Not I. I didn't like the instance as it was, not to mention running it 4x when it first dropped. Ulduar was great, but it was LONG and running it twice over was not possible for much of the population. Naxxramas was the start where achievements came to matter, but there was only a 10/25 version and once you were geared it was cream puff.

HOPEFULLY...we will have plenty of fun, difficult dungeons...many DIFFERENT raids, rather than varied raids of the same actual dungeon/raid...more difficult content...and a balance to all aspects of the game. WOW is an evolving GAME and an evolving MMORPG model. It has come a long way and as long as BOTH aspects evolve simultaneously, it will continue growing. Once either stops, IT will end.

[Tukula]

I find it funny how plp complained the entire wotlk about lack of support for smaller guilds and now that they fix it even more plp QQ about it.

Fact is: (1) They already told us cata will have more raid than EVER before. (Proof: http://www.worldofwarcraft.com/cataclysm/features/ read the bottom at More Raid Content than Ever Before) (2) Top guilds will still do 25-Man for faster progression and achievements.

If you prefer smaller raids thats great then you have nothing to whine about, but there still plp who enjoys bigger guilds and bigger raids and they will be rightly rewarded so for their effort.

This.

This is an amazing change. It really allows people to do what they really enjoy, I mean this is a game made for entertainment. If you really are in love with 25 man raids, then find 24 other people to it with, this forum already proves that there are people out there who would rather do 25 mans. 25 mans will allow people to progress faster by gaining gear faster, making 25 man guilds allows in front of 10 man guilds.

If you truthfully believe that 25 man guilds are going to die, then why have them around if everyone hates them?

[Belial-sama]

I asked why is he loving this.

Because I hate 25man guilds facerolling 10man content and /lol /spit on those who do it on appropriate gear lvl.
Yes, there are idiots who actually think overgearing doesn't make a difference.

[Revved]

Whether you're a big guild or a small guild the choice won't be dependent on what items drop, but instead on what you enjoy the most.

This is VERY VERY TRUE!

I can't wait for Cata already!

[Blackaorta]

I fail to see the issue with 10m and 25m at the moment. ICC Heroic 10m drops fine gear it might not be ilvl 277 then again 10 people are a lot easier to find than 25.

My point is, I can't see how a 10m will ever be tuned to be as difficult as a 25. 25m doesn't necessarily allow for the carrying of 'bads' as some people are saying here (probably said by the people who never got past saurfang in icc normal) maybe you guys should check how competent 25m guilds raid (competent guild= better have at least normal ICC 25 cleared. is a joke with this buff), shit players just aren't accepted. If the raids are tuned right, the 25m will always require more coordination as whole than any 10m counterpart ...carrying through old content will inevitably happen as new tier raids/gear are introduced either way, but who gives a fuck, cuz its old content.

[Vanilla]

Win for casuals? But isn't the 25 man, according to the elitists, 10 good people + 15 "casuals"?

Argh, the logic on this thread creates time paradoxes!

Did you read the post ?

they will also keep the try system ... a hardcore raiding guild has a 25-man alt raid just to practise ON TOP of the 10 man group expirience.

[chir0n]

I love these changes.
For the hardcore raiders it won't be a nice change though. Emblems won't come as fast anymore then aswell

[Crispin]

Spoken like a true shitty. Give me your character, and regardless of what gear he is wearing I will play it better in every aspect of the game then you.

Stupid ass comments like this are the reason these changes are getting implimented. People like you are the reason for it.

The air-head shit for brains people who probably gem for spirit on their warriors and complian about why they die tanking Marrowgarr with 497 defense in dungeon blues. No, people don't need gear to play better. Retards like yourself belong in greens and blues, just like in BC and Vanilla.

Guess his 10+ stats gem is for the meta? since it counts as one of each color.

[Quesly]

QQ, people couldnt do SSC, TK, Kara or any raids twice a week on the same char in tbc, same deal in vanilla, doing every raid twice a week on the same character is a pain in the arse and makes no sense whatsoever.

Ofcourse all the "lawl giff more badges and chances for lewt" scrubs are screaming, since they love pugging 4 raids a week /yawn


In the end you'll get over it and used to it, It'll obviously kill some 25 man raids, but I'm pretty sure that there are a ton of 25 man raiding guilds who are recruiting "bodies" and not people they actually like, well now is your chance to get rid of any death weight/retards.

yes but people doing kara didn't get ssc level gear they got kara gear

[Cilraaz]

Catering to the casuals then - count me in Hard core raiders should not feel butt-hurt imo - they still have the power to gain uber items (hard modes) and "realm/world firsts." I see a win/win scenario

The problem comes from the vast bulk of the whining portion of this community.

Truly elite players have something to point to. Ensidia was disappointed with themselves for being third to kill Lich King 25-man heroic, yet they can still piont to something that they did better than all but 2 raid groups in the world.

Truly casual players raid with friends, get some loot, and have some fun. They could give a shit about anyone else.

Some of the people in between are trying to be hardcore, but aren't quite there. They have to flaunt anything they can. Once the purples aren't enough (and they're not good enough for the important achievements), then what? "OH NOES! BLIZZ SUCKS!".

[edit: Changed the third category to read "some of the people in between", since a lot of the people in between are still cool people that are having fun and trying to push forward.]

[- Kronos -]

25 man already drops more loot...and people still get RNG'd for weeks/months. I love how people try to argue they'll get their loot faster if they do it on 25 man, as if it were some incentive. You run a higher chance of it dropping and also have to wait 2.5x as long if it DOES drop for that item to come to you after it gets through other raiders.

10 mans will never be as difficult as a 25 man, more control is needed, and the chance of error is exponentially higher, especially with how much they spread raid buffs around. Who even needs a shaman any more when you can just TIME WARP. This isn't about the difficulty in organizing a 25 man, pugs look for the same GS/experience requirements on 10 man as they do on 25, and there are ICC 25 groups on my server that clear up to LK in a day. This is about Blizzard homogenizing the loot and encounters because they're too busy catering to the masses that hand them 3 million in a single day buying Celestial Steeds.

[Downwithopp]

Yeah, perhaps you should know more about my paladin and my guild? No?
Prot is my offspec, I never use it, as I'm holy mainspec. I really don't care that much about my prot gear.
What else, than my brewfest trinkets should I use? Thought so.
Defense cap? nono, it's a minimum, learn the difference.

As for my guild, we are very social, we don't force people and it contains people from +18. Some with low gaming experience. We raid 2 days a week, 3 hours each.
You are still a troll, trying to flame people without any knowledge about those you flame. Now begone.

So just because its your offspec means its okay to gem it like a kid who rolled out of the fucking shortbus? I don't need any more knowledge about you. You don't put effort into knowing anything about your class. You throw gems in the correct sockets because it looks pretty, and you have no common sense on how the game actually works.

You are seriously trying to tell me that gemming for defense after cap is beneficial? That right there proves you are a mindless piece of garbage. Regardless you haven't seen past Princes in 25 man. If thats your offspec, I shudder to think what your mainspec looks like.

[Svenny]

Move on to what exactly? WoW is miles ahead of all it's competition. There isn't anything even half as good.

I meant more like move on with your life, not to a different mmo. My point is that you should not pay for WoW if you are not satisfied with what you are paying for, you are in your full right to cancel the subscription.

[Error302]

sounds good, particularly if they really hold up the end of the bargain where bosses drop more loot on 25. the way i see it bosses on 25 should be dropping at least 5 pieces of loot if 10 mans continue to drop 2, since a 10 man is 2 groups, and a 25 is 5 groups. having this loot setup will make 25 mans have at least as much value as 10 mans, and if they decide to actually make the ratio higher, say 6 or more pieces of loot on 25 man bosses, then 25 mans will actually be a more efficient way to raid than 10 mans.

[Necrotan]

You know what it said on the WoTLK features page? "MAKE YOUR OWN DANCES" Yeah, that didnt happen either, just because Billy Mays tells you that the putty will stick to a semi and trailer and pull it doesnt mean its going to actually happen.

Flawed evidence as dancing is dumb.


OT: Many of you either need to learn to read, or stop being a doomsayer for the sake of doomsaying, OR stop getting your "Im more important than everyone" panties in a bunch.

This is a good change. For everyone who doesn't have a god complex.

[Deleted]

Very true. Guess I'll have to find something in the real world to be insanely hardcore about. I doubt it'll be half as fun as 25-man raids but what can ya do...

Actually, I do feel your pain. I was 40-man hardcore raider. I powerlvled a Belf Paladin right at the beginning of TBC just to help my guild on 25-man raids. But then the RL hit me like 10 ton truck, forcing me become semi-casual on the rest of TBC and WotLK.

Sure, my story has nothing to do with this (and honestly, I really don't care about raiding, I'll be playing very casually on Cataclysm), but I do understand your pain.

Still, doesn't make me think logically and understand the reason of this decision, adding all the other changes.

[domn]

Don't blame me.

[Elween]

Wait what? As far as normal modes go, 25man is a lot more forgiving.

Deathbringer Saurfang comes to my mind.
Mark of the Fallen Champion:
(25) Yeah sure 5 guys have the mark no big deal our 6 healers can handle it
(10) Guys we have one mark up kill it fast or the 2 healers will be over run

[Bellentino]

More loot dropping from the 25 man versions sounds like a killer idea. Get geared faster ftw!

[dvdconway]

And then posited that it was because he would have access to "25-man gear" (which actually won't be 25-man gear anymore, since it's just raid gear at that point). I was simply pointing out that Blizzard isn't doing it to give 10-man raiders "25-man gear". They're doing it to avoid all of the scaling problems that arose from poor itemization planning this expansion.

While I understand your point, I highly doubt this is their only reasoning behind the changes. I suspect its more to do with 10-man guilds complaining about 25 man guilds receiving 'better' gear than of which they can obtain through their raids. This is of course ridiculous as the reason the 25 man gear had improved stats was because there were higher DPS requirements etc.

I can't help but feel this is there way of making the 10 man QQ'ers feel good about themselves.