Cataclysm Raid Progression Refinements

[Abnell]

Can't you people just not get this ? How pathetic addicted people are really.

The issue is that they can't make 10 and 25 the same difficulty without making one too easy or another too hard. Another issue is that nobody is going to do something harder in a game (make a larger raid) if there is no incentive to do so. The extra loot will have to be A LOT for 25man guilds to not break up into 10mans.

[soradakey]

If you read the artical to the end, or perhaps more carefully, they say that not all developers make games with enslaving or addicting their consumer base as their top priority, but that the people just become addicted only because the game fills a void in their life. This is why I believe the people who constantly bitch about what blizz does every patch continue to play. That being said i'm not bashing your opinion at all.

I found that article extremely biased. I mean the whole purpose of MMO's is to make a game you don't finish in 5-60 hours. From a developer's standpoint it's impossible to make totally unique content you only play a couple times max so spreading the rewards evenly for a (on average) steady progression which doesn't bore you before the new content arrives (excluding a certain amount of people obviously) is the only way to keep people renewing their subscriptions. And players accept this not because they are tricked into it but because that's what they wanna spend their time doing.

WoW is not addictive unless you let it be.

[Barracks00]

As a pug, the only thing that makes 25 man harder than 10 man is having to carry several people that don't know what they're doing, and then having them win rolls on loot they really don't deserve.

This is an awesome change.

[Jathro]

That's your personal preference. Remember there are many players that don't care for 25man raids. This is why Blizz is making this change.

There are many players that DO care for 25man raids. This is why Blizz shouldn't make this change.

Seriously, what stupid reasoning.

[Dreirden]

This is one of the worst ideas ever. While 25 man will drop more loot than 10 man, the ratio of loot per the amount of people will probably be the same, unless 25 man drops a significant amount of loot, 10 man drops 2 pieces of loot per boss which is 1/5 therefore just to MATCH it each 25 man boss will have to drop 5 pieces and to make 25 man even worth it, each boss will have to drop more than 5. > >

People need to learn to read before responding.

We of course recognize the logistical realities of organizing larger groups of people, so while the loot quality will not change, 25-player versions will drop a higher quantity of loot per player (items, but also badges, and even gold), making it a more efficient route if you're able to gather the people.

[Smoopie]

I have a feeling the only people that will be raiding 25 man in cata are the people that QQ that they aren't in the A group for their guilds 10 man raids

[Odyssasthai]

Wow, a few things:

1) For those folks emotionally upset over this: I'd hate to see how you deal with real life issues. It's just a game for god's sake. Calm down.

2) For those of you who claim, "This is the end of WoW" or "Welcome to Casualcraft": Find a new bromide. Every major change has been met with this tired argument and none of them "killed" WoW--matter of fact, accessibility has only helped the game.

3) Stop making assumptions on the difficulty levels. As we've seen before, the devil is in the details--until we play it, we won't have a firm understanding of what we have.

[implicationmmo]

10 man:
-10 people, maybe 6 bosses in one raid.
-each boss drops 2 items out of a possible 8+?.
-12 bits of loot with a 25% chance you will get the loot you want per boss, if you want any from that boss.

25 man:
-25 people, maybe 6 bosses.
-each boss drops 5 items out of a possible 8+?
-30 bits of loot with a 62.5% chance you will get the loot you want per boss, if you want any from that boss.

in 25's you have a better chance of getting the loot you want faster, so people who do 25's have a chance of gearing faster then people who do 10's.

Sir, you are COMPLETLY missing the point, even if the maths is correct.

Of course, more drops = a higher chance of gearing up quicker, IF YOU GET ALL THE DROPS!!!!

In this case, we are interrested in the average: with the following 2 in 10 man vs 5 in 25 man model, you have a 2.5% of getting a drop in 10 OR 25 ( forgetting the fact that not everyone wants it (tank/heal/dps) ).

So in this model, they would be NO adventage to raid 25 man if you count drop per head

Then, if you do 25 man, you will gear up 25 men, whereas if you do 2 10 man, only 20.

[Kryos]

This change will cause this:

1. 25 Raidguilds will vanish with few exceptions
2. PUGs will be standard
3. Raiders will run 10-mans with their best players (only some we-want-to-be-world-1st will do 25 to gear up a little faster) doing heroic modes much faster
4. WoW will lose many old-school and hardcore-players
5. WoW will get many more 100% casual 1-2 hours/day players

This could end the raiding style we know love/hate for 5 years - it will open raids to people who never raided (and those are still the majority) and bore the 6+hours/day players causing many of them to leave and play other MMOs. But for Blizzard it means more players, more money. They could care less about hardcore guild QQ if they get a legion of paying casuals in return.

PS: sorry for my bad english, not my native language.

[Prag]

This is one of the worst ideas ever. While 25 man will drop more loot than 10 man, the ratio of loot per the amount of people will probably be the same, unless 25 man drops a significant amount of loot, 10 man drops 2 pieces of loot per boss which is 1/5 therefore just to MATCH it each 25 man boss will have to drop 5 pieces and to make 25 man even worth it, each boss will have to drop more than 5. > >

Why?

People running 25's should be running 25's because they have *wait for it* Twenty-Five competent players.

Not because 25's have a higher ratio of loot per person...

[Gummywyrms]

People need to learn to read before responding.

Good thing they mention the number of items, I am simply saying that they need to make it more than 5 pieces of loot to even make it worth while, as for gold who cares? it is already easy enough to obtain and has no worth.

[Etna]

People are complaining about how 25 main raiding will become obsolete because you'll get same loot as 10 man etc but I thought people were doing 25 mans for fun instead of loot. "it's waaay more epic with 25 man than with 10 etc etc"

that is not more epic, 10man hardmodes are more hard and you cant screw up in 10 man if someone screws ut its wipe and 25 man not realy.

[charette]

No more carrying 15 bads. My 25man guild is on LK. My 10 man group has drakes. Thank you blizzard.

[Axelhander]

Thanks blizzard for killing the only reason why I raid. 25m content.

You will not be able to sustain 25 man guilds in your proposed environment. The drama that would develop over create 10M raids within a "large" guild would quickly break them up.

I guess I needed a good reason to quit. And you have given me one. Youve totally deflated my enthusiasm toward Cataclysm.

Choose my response:

1) They aren't destroying squat. You're quitting because you can no longer gloat over smaller groups with your bigger e-peen.
2) Mmm... Your tears are so yummy!

I completely agree with this statement, and that illustrates precisely why I hate this change.

Go outside then, nerd-rager. Or play one of multitudes of other, better-made games out there while waiting for your precious raids to cool down. Recommended: Street Fighter HD Remix, Super Street Fighter 4, Arkham Asylum, Megaman 10, Halo 3, anything with Zelda in its title, Mario Galaxy 1/2, etc.

[Abnell]

Why?

People running 25's should be running 25's because they have *wait for it* Twenty-Five competent players.

Not because 25's have a higher ratio of loot per person...

Uhuh, it's fun having to have 25 people on at the same time to raid. Splitting up into 10s wouldn't be more convenient without any downside at all...

[ozzyloki]

never doing a 25 man again.

[Smolderthorn]

Can't you people just not get this ? How pathetic addicted people are really.

I play this game because it gives rewards.
Or well it used to do so.

In Real Life it's not like you get a good bonus for each thing you do right.... thats why the game is good, you gain rewards for putting in effort.

[Dreirden]

Good thing they mention the number of items, I am simply saying that they need to make it more than 5 pieces of loot to even make it worth while, as for gold who cares? it is already easy enough to obtain and has no worth.

They stated that it will be MORE PER PLAYER. So that will mean more than 5 assuming 2 drops per boss on 10 man.

[fiffer86]

This is one of the worst ideas ever. While 25 man will drop more loot than 10 man, the ratio of loot per the amount of people will probably be the same, unless 25 man drops a significant amount of loot, 10 man drops 2 pieces of loot per boss which is 1/5 therefore just to MATCH it each 25 man boss will have to drop 5 pieces and to make 25 man even worth it, each boss will have to drop more than 5. > >

This is where I would disagree. If they are planing on keeping 25 mans alive (which I assume they are) when they say 25 man groups will drop "more", Im assuming its per player in the raid. More or less saying if 10 mans drop 2 pieces of gear per player in 10 man, the 25 man will drop 3-4 pieces of gear per player.

Not to mention they could also increase the reputation gains, and the chance of epic pattern drops in 25 man, which would also increase the rate of gearing up.

Really this whole announcement to me is concerning the current live version of WoW. How the majority of raiding guilds CAN NOT clear 25 man content without grinding out the much easier 10 man versions.

More or less the idea that if you can not clear 25 man ICC, you will not be able to clear 10 man ICC. And you will still have to get better gear from TOGC.

[Smoopie]

...people think there is a skilled tank shortage now, just wait