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  1. #1701
    Herald of the Titans Keosen's Avatar
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    Re: Cataclysm Raid Progression Refinements

    No matter how much you whine or nerd-rege quit, Blizz knows what they doing, they want to make the game more accessible to the vast majority of the community so they can have more subscribers.

    They don't really care about hardcore or casual they care about their incomes and how they gonna make them flow like river.

    So they have such a hard dilemma :

    "Listen to the nerd-raged kids/hardcores who they represent like the 10% of the community"
    OR
    "Listen to the people that they don't have enough time to play because they actually have something to do in their lives and their represents the 90% of the community"

    Hmmmm hard choice.

  2. #1702

    Re: Cataclysm Raid Progression Refinements

    Quote Originally Posted by Keosen
    No matter how much you whine or nerd-rege quit, Blizz knows what they doing, they want to make the game more accessible to the vast majority of the community so they can have more subscribers.
    They don't really care about hardcore or casual they care about their incomes and how they gonna make them flow like river.
    So they have such a hard dilemma
    "Listen to the nerd-raged kids/hardcores who they represent like the 10% of the community"
    OR
    "Listen to the people that they don't have enough time to play because they actually have something to do in their lives and their represents the 90% of the community"

    Hmmmm hard choice.
    TL;DR
    It's impossible to make everyone happy

  3. #1703

    Re: Cataclysm Raid Progression Refinements

    I think that the difficulty difference between 10 and 25 ppl are mostly aproached with ignorance by a large number of ppl. You do realize that having to split raid dps in 3 for Valkyrs is an organizational thingy, which has to be done by leader. In the other hand, having to kill the beasts at saurfang with 2 casters only is much more of a challenge then in 25 ppl where you have anyway plenty of ranged.

    When I saw that 10 ppl raids will provide same gear as in 25 ppl raids, I was like:
    "WOooaw, finaly 10 ppl will be able to get a legendary, or an imba title, or an imba mount, because there will not be sources for better gear and trivialize the 10 ppl version of an instance". Since the model of doing 10 ppl with that instance gear failed mostly, Blizzard is moving away from that aproach. Ppl will still get ilevel 264 items from 25 for example and use it in 10 ppl ICC, no matter what the rewards/mounts/legendaries will drop by using ilevel 251 gear only. So this was the only solution in my opinion to to keep 10 ppl challenging. But here comes the big question:

    Who will still do 25 ppl if the rewards are the same?
    Keeping a 25 ppl roster while you got the ppl is much more easy. When it comes to 10 ppl, 1 single person quiting the game can make a guild to disband. I really don't see why Blizzard did this tbh.
    The purpose of making 10 ppl and 25 ppl give same gear should be to allow nice rewards to be handed to 10 ppl raids players, but what will remain there for the 25ppl raids, so that ppl feel is still worth to put the effort to run a 25 ppl guild?

  4. #1704
    Herald of the Titans Keosen's Avatar
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    Re: Cataclysm Raid Progression Refinements

    Quote Originally Posted by Ryuko
    TL;DR
    It's impossible to make everyone happy
    Ofc it's impossible with 11mil subscribers.
    I would be hard even with 1000 subscribers.

  5. #1705

    Re: Cataclysm Raid Progression Refinements

    10man raiders and casuals rejoice!

    25man raiders get ready to enjoy 10mans!

    worst. news. ever.
    Quote Originally Posted by Zillionhz View Post
    By fiber be purged

  6. #1706

    Re: Cataclysm Raid Progression Refinements

    I'm in a guild raiding 25 and i love achievements, normally i get them in 10 mode, since 25 voices is the same as 25 opinions, now i have to choose between achievements or guildies, GG

  7. #1707

    Re: Cataclysm Raid Progression Refinements

    # 10-Man and 25-Man raids will share the same lockout.
    # 10-Man and 25-Man raids difficulty will be as close as possible to each other.
    # 10-Man and 25-Man raids will drop the exact same loot, but 25-man will drop a higher quantity of items.


    I love that change, best ive read so far.
    Azeroth and Kalimdor and Northrend and Outland

  8. #1708

    Re: Cataclysm Raid Progression Refinements

    Dont worry guys. next expansion 5 man raids will be the path of progression and you can have 1 man instances.

    we all knows blizzard is trying to make the game better for the one player. and we also know that everyone els is retarded and if you only played with yourself world first would come as candy!.


  9. #1709

    Re: Cataclysm Raid Progression Refinements

    Quote Originally Posted by Wormie
    Dont worry guys. next expansion 5 man raids will be the path of progression and you can have 1 man instances.

    we all knows blizzard is trying to make the game better for the one player. and we also know that everyone els is retarded and if you only played with yourself world first would come as candy!.

    And when you login a new character, you get instant max level and the day after you get all the best epics in the game in your mailbox. If you manage to still play for one week, you will get all legendaries in your mailbox.

    See, I can do stupid statements too.

  10. #1710

    Re: Cataclysm Raid Progression Refinements

    In before Cataclysm is released and the QQ that new 10 man's are too hard!
    "The fact that you don't get it or like it is fine. The fact that you wanna ruin it for everyone else - that's why you're a cocksucker." - Bill Hicks
    Quote Originally Posted by Darsithis View Post
    The playerbase has been desiring this for years and when it's finally here, everyone wants to grab a pitchfork. Ridiculous. This community is disgustingly toxic.

  11. #1711

    Re: Cataclysm Raid Progression Refinements

    Quote Originally Posted by Ryuko
    And when you login a new character, you get instant max level and the day after you get all the best epics in the game in your mailbox. If you manage to still play for one week, you will get all legendaries in your mailbox.

    See, I can do stupid statements too.
    The way the game is now you can have full epics in a week lol so at least that's right in you post.

  12. #1712

    Re: Cataclysm Raid Progression Refinements

    25 mans will ALWAYS need some kind of perks. Period the end. They even stated they KNOW there is more logistical difficulty when it comes to 25 mans, so they KNOW that there will ALWAYS be a difficulty gap to some degree no matter HOW hard they try.

    And they better have some tricks up their sleeves because it's REALLY hard to make a 10m as difficult as a 25m without watering down the depth of the encounter. The fact that you have more room in most fights is already a HUGE advantage.

    There's about 1000 ways to fuck this up and only 1 way to get it kinda right. Doesn't look good. Will have to wait and see I guess....

    EX - <PIE CHART> US TOP 10 Check 'em out http://piechart-guild.com/

  13. #1713

    Re: Cataclysm Raid Progression Refinements

    Tbh, I would have done like this:
    Keep the model that we currently have, but make the gear from 25 ppl don't give any stats (appear like 0 durability/disabled or anything) when entering in a 10 ppl instance.
    Or maybe make it such way that your ilevel 264 gear be recognized only when you reach hard modes in 10 ppl, doing that ofc in ilevel 251 gear only.
    I think would have worked better. But I think also this model has a problem because ppl do like to have better gear just to faceroll 10 mans and feel imba, which is somehow wrong. And this aproach will still suffer from 25 ppl not being happy at all that they can't use their gear in 10 ppl instances..

  14. #1714

    Re: Cataclysm Raid Progression Refinements

    Quote Originally Posted by Onthar

    So, do you build the 10-man raid version around gearing from the 25-man tier before it or the 10-man tier before it? If you build it for the 10-man, then the people who are in 25-man gear will smoke through it, and gear even faster for their 25-man raids. Look at it now. First guilds through ICC-10 were ones smoking through ICC-25, because of the gear. How many guilds who have downed HM LK-10 would have gotten him without using 25-man hard mode loot? It poses a huge disadvantage to 10-man raiding guilds, and its just silly how much of an edge 25-man raiding guilds get.

    you're forgetting 1 thing. When you can down bosses on 25men HC, the execution in 10men is completely faceroll. I'm pretty sure you can downgrade your gear and still easily make it.
    you have more room for error on 10men, which you can't have on 25men hc. make a perfect run on 25men hc, then 10men is piss easy.

    When you can deal with 3 valkirs, infest healing and grouping/spreading on defile with 25 guys on a platform, trust me, doing it with 1 valkir and 10 people on the same platform is So so so so much easier.

    it's all about the experience and time you have spent on something. ask random people to go 1 shot yogg sarron, and see the results. same shit, it's the execution. Like all things, it's 10% from the gear, 90% from the execution.
    Originally Posted by Blizzard Entertainment
    Ret was broken. If you don’t see eye to eye with us on that, then it’s understandable why the degree of change might be surprising to you
    i7 920@ 3.4Ghz, Gigabyte X58A-UD7, 6GB Ram Triple Channel OCZ @ 1900Mhz, CrossFire HD 5850 1Gb, Vertex 3 240Gb, BenQ M2700HD. G15 Keyboard

  15. #1715

    Re: Cataclysm Raid Progression Refinements

    OK, this appeared in my Google Reader 15hrs ago, and it's caused 116 pages of discussion so far? Wowzers...

    Guess that means there's precisely 0 chance of anyone reading my post :P Ah well, it's going to be interesting to see how they tune 10 man to 25 man level, a little disappointed on the one hand that there's less weekly raiding to do, but on the other I've got a sodding job and can barely play these days anyway, so I guess it's a good thing.

    Obvious question, how do we conjecture they're going to split loot across 10 and 25 man? Obviously equal chance would be 2 pieces in 10, 5 in 25 (keeping the numbers low enough to be sensible, and not just a lootfest) - are we thinking 1 in 10 and 3 in 25 (which will seem a little harsh on 10 mans), or 2 in 10 and 6 in 25 (which will make it feel like 25 _is_ in fact a lootfest). That's going to be a tough on to convince the playerbase on initially :P

    Jeb

  16. #1716

    Re: Cataclysm Raid Progression Refinements

    I understand the changes, but not a fan yet. I hope they will work out.

    I think they are making a bad move, except if they work everything out perfectly. Wich I doubt, seeing all the mistakes in WotLK.

    If they don't give 25 man enough extra reward people will stop doing them. A few more drops is not going to help. To get 25 people together and stay focused and communicate between these people is a lot harder then most people think. All guilds who struggle with this will abandone 25 man. As soon as something goes wrong, bye bye 25 man.
    Also 10 man is easier. Some people don't believe it, but it is. Communication and positioning etc. is just A LOT easier in a 10 man, obviously. You also have a lot more space in a dungeon and a much better overview on what is going on with only 10 people running around. I doubt they can tune 10 and 25 on the same level just like that (On their first try. You get another: "we were unable to balance 10 and 25 man raids, we made a mistake. But be patient with us and we will "fix" it").

    They better work really hard on this one. If this goes wrong a lot of people will quit, i think.
    I also hate they are removing the epic feeling even more by giving the best loot in game from a 10 man raid. All the 10 man fans will disagree though.

    Well, we will see what happens. I am probably gonna quit if it's like WotLK. Casual players are lucky and all the hardcore raiders just get screwed over and over again. Or they have to make these raids really amazing. But seriously who expects that after Naxx25, ToC and ICC?
    Here are the real changes:
    1) Less expensies for blizard to maintain the instance servers.
    2) Less servers required by blizard to host concurrent instances
    3) More money for blizzard
    4. Only able to do one version of an instance. People are less bored with the instance, but play less. Still paying every month.
    It's the same thing with the limited tries and not releasing the whole instance at once. "We liked people focusing on certain bosses and not racing to the last boss" . Right, gtfo. You like people wasting their time waiting for content while they pay you every month.

  17. #1717

    Re: Cataclysm Raid Progression Refinements

    Quote Originally Posted by JebJoya
    OK, this appeared in my Google Reader 15hrs ago, and it's caused 116 pages of discussion so far? Wowzers...

    Guess that means there's precisely 0 chance of anyone reading my post :P Ah well, it's going to be interesting to see how they tune 10 man to 25 man level, a little disappointed on the one hand that there's less weekly raiding to do, but on the other I've got a sodding job and can barely play these days anyway, so I guess it's a good thing.

    Obvious question, how do we conjecture they're going to split loot across 10 and 25 man? Obviously equal chance would be 2 pieces in 10, 5 in 25 (keeping the numbers low enough to be sensible, and not just a lootfest) - are we thinking 1 in 10 and 3 in 25 (which will seem a little harsh on 10 mans), or 2 in 10 and 6 in 25 (which will make it feel like 25 _is_ in fact a lootfest). That's going to be a tough on to convince the playerbase on initially :P

    Jeb
    What i am thinking they will do is make 25mans give slightly more loot to make it worth doing. I know alot of people on this forum can probably back that up. so maybe the ratio will be 2/10 10mans and 6/25 on 25mans 3 times the loot but not 3 times the raiders.

  18. #1718

    Re: Cataclysm Raid Progression Refinements

    Ok guys, the truth comes out. In vanila i had having to rely on 39 other retards to raid,
    And ive hated relying on 24 other people since WoTLK...
    AND NOW WHAT IS THIS? I HAVE TO RELY ON 9 OTHER RETARDS!?!??!?! ARE U SRS?
    Why cant blizzard Just make it that i can solo raids, tank, dps and heal myself.


    oh wait.. WTF... i read that and i feel like ive been smacked in the stomach with a long metal pole....
    i really hope blizzard makes this work :'(

  19. #1719
    High Overlord
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    Re: Cataclysm Raid Progression Refinements

    It's always about gear, its the only thing people think about. I don't care about gear, I'm a raider thats enjoyment is based on coming up with strategies to encounters that are difficult.

    If 10 and 25 are to be mirrored difficulties, this means that the raids are going to be dumbed down. It's a fact, there is absolutely no way to make 25man as easy as 10man unless you dumb it down.

    Blizzard can't even balance the classes correctly, and people believe they can pull the impossible and make 10mans as hard as 25mans.

    I don't see why they gave up on the idea of giving a handful of 10man raids, and a handful of 25man raids. Why do they both have to be the exact same raid. This is such a lazy move. It's just boggling that players eat it up as if it's a godsend.


  20. #1720

    Re: Cataclysm Raid Progression Refinements

    Quote Originally Posted by JackBauerLOL
    Seriously, the irony and arrogance of 10man raiders is blinding.
    Almost as much as 25man Raiders who are slowly being disillusioned to the fact they got significantly better gear for a not as significantly more difficult instance.



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