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  1. #1861
    Mechagnome Synbaby's Avatar
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    Re: Cataclysm Raid Progression Refinements

    I don't have a problem with the loot thing for the most part. I do have a problem with the lock out change though. I've been playing since vanilla and this is by far the worst idea blizz has had. I don't want to raid 2 nights a week and then not have anything else to do the rest of the week. I love raiding, its why I play. So maybe they want to encourage us to go back to pvp, but pvp has been broken for a long time.
    And by the way, just from the blue post, it has in fact caused a cataclysm on my server(hehe). Guilds that have been around awhile have already announced they are done with raiding hardcore til cataclysm comes out. And so it begins...
    What doesn't destroy us, only makes us stranger

  2. #1862

    Re: Cataclysm Raid Progression Refinements

    Quote Originally Posted by Cruisette
    Doing something with 25 people is much more difficult than doing it with someone in 10m gear. There is so much that could go wrong in a 25m. And, last I looked this was an MMO, not an RPG. >.>

    I don't see the system now as being 'broke' or 'flawed' really. You know who raids and who kind of doesn't right now. I've been in a 25m successfully since the start of BC and have cleared everything besides 10m Algalon up to this point. I've enjoyed being with 24 other people. Seeing it go down to 9 is a bit bothersome. I don't really enjoy 10m at all because of it being so small.
    Seeing it go down to 9? Im sorry but where does it say that there is not 25 man raids anymore. This will in NO way effect ppl that enjoy 25 man raiding. If you like to do 25 man raids with ppl that also like to do 25 man raids then you will find them. If ppl want to do 10 mans then they will but it will in no way reduce the enjoyment you can have. In some ways it will INCREASE it since you will now be raiding that will ONLY like to raid with 25 man ppl - since there is another way of doing it if you are looking for less ppl.

    And the logic about 25 man beeing harder than 10 cause there are more ppl ? Im sorry but I did 40 man runs from early MC and there was nothing more hard about it than the 25 mans we are doing today. Having smaller groups usually means that you expect more from each person. That was defently the case when comparing 40 to 25 man raids. You could pretty much do all early 40 man content with 1 decent tank, 3-5 top healers and rest just had to make sure they didn't kill the entire raid with blowing up or stupid pulls.

    If something - I think 10 mans will be more challenging and require more of each individual - than what 25 man will be.

    This is a mmoRPG that needs to have a well structured core systems. It will also have to take into account that this is a game - first and foremost. Like I said before: WOW is your second life - NOT the only life. The current system is not healthy for anyone. No gaming company should promote such lifestyle.

    I personally think this is a good change. It doesn't take ANYTHING away from those that like 25 man raids. Absolutly NOTHING. It only adds to what is availabe in 10 mans.

  3. #1863

    Re: Cataclysm Raid Progression Refinements

    Realy i dont understand the people that say "yay, i am realy happy with this change, i am a 10 man raider and i welcome this" if they are already 10 man raiders, they dont mind what kind of loot the raid drops, its more than enought for their pogression table to do 10 mans how they are know, and if they think that they will get more people on their guild, forget it, coz the ones that leave 25 mans coz of the easy 10 mans loot,they will not think twice on leave the guild, when they get to a realy hard boss and require endless nights of wipe.

  4. #1864

    Re: Cataclysm Raid Progression Refinements

    worst idea ever. epic 10man world progression sounds like a fucking joke, diaf

  5. #1865

    Re: Cataclysm Raid Progression Refinements

    Apparently you people are too short sided to see the bad side of this. This means we have to choose between doing content as a guild or lose everyone to separate 10 man groups. My guild has really come to know each other well and now we basically have to force everyone into the 25 man since they'll be locked otherwise.

    I can definitely seeing guilds dissolve over this

  6. #1866

    Re: Cataclysm Raid Progression Refinements

    Quote Originally Posted by Zamien
    So the point in doing 25 man is loot only? If you feel it is more epic to down in a 25 man group why would you not?
    Loot are related to how epic the boss is. How many people that is needed for the boss is directly related to and should be related to how hard the boss is. Epicness in this game was destroyed with Wotlk when the boss could exist in 4 different versions.

  7. #1867

    Re: Cataclysm Raid Progression Refinements

    Coming from a 25man guild in HM's, i'm looking forward to this change.. No longer will 10-15 of us have to carry 10 other retards through hardmodes. It's hard to recruit 25 skilled players (protip: the reason why the good guilds are good is because they have 25 SKILLED players - who also receive welfare payments but that's another topic) on most servers so you have to do with 10 average duds who bring you down.

    With this change, these terrible players that we've been carrying will be kicked and the solid group of 10 players will smash through 10man hardmodes without a problem.

    I doubt any of the people in this thread are actually in a guild where they have 25 skilled players - otherwise they'd be a top 50 guild - so the bottom line is this.. the reason you are all upset can be described in these 2 scenarios:
    a) you are a terrible player (subconsciously know it) and will be kicked
    b) you enjoy the "epic feeling" (note: this feeling is purely subjective) and will miss 25mans
    ... scenario (a) being the most probable.

    Look at it this way: this system will reward the GOOD players and punish those who have been carried through all of wotlk.

    If you think otherwise, you are terrible or delusional (probably both)

  8. #1868

    Re: Cataclysm Raid Progression Refinements

    I can't tell if I like the changes or not, being a casual raider I like the variety of 10/25....

  9. #1869

    Re: Cataclysm Raid Progression Refinements

    GG blizz bring on the change!!!! <3 from the casual 10 man raiders!!!! :-*

  10. #1870

    Re: Cataclysm Raid Progression Refinements

    I really dont understand why people are saying cata will ship with less raids? they said 4 raids which are not one boss raids and more like 5-6 each.

    Wrath shiped with naxx and 3 one boss raids.

    Seems like way more bosses and content to me?

  11. #1871

    Re: Cataclysm Raid Progression Refinements

    Will se how much valor points you get from 25 compared to 10... but BEST thing ever to make loot same and focus on content.

  12. #1872

    Re: Cataclysm Raid Progression Refinements

    I do not like it at all. It screws 25m raiding, they will all have the same gear, nothing different to say "he is good" "he is bad"

  13. #1873

    Re: Cataclysm Raid Progression Refinements

    This change is being celebrated by a bunch of newbies who never really raided 25-mans aside from PuGs, or perhaps grudgingly as part of a guild they didn't enjoy.

    What is this crap? If you don't personally enjoy it you cheer its destruction?

    Spoiled little bastards IMO.

  14. #1874

    Re: Cataclysm Raid Progression Refinements

    Quote Originally Posted by mmaker
    Loot are related to how epic the boss is. How many people that is needed for the boss is directly related to and should be related to how hard the boss is. Epicness in this game was destroyed with Wotlk when the boss could exist in 4 different versions.
    Totally agree with the 4 diffrent version. The main change now is that you can ONLY kill it in one version per week.

    Number of ppl does not make the bosses any more epic. Its the tuning of the boss that controls that. If it was about numbers of players then the open world bosses that could be killed by 100-200 ppl (if you wanted) were the most epic. They are not.

    Im in no way saying this change is perfect. I still think its a step in the right direction

  15. #1875

    Re: Cataclysm Raid Progression Refinements

    How many players does a current 25 man guild maintain to successfully raid?

    30? 35? maybe 40?

    What happens when 25 man guild try to run 25 mans?

    5 - 15 people sit out?

    Maybe they get subbed in and people see only a couple of bosses for the WHOLE WEEK as once they have entered the ID they can't run a 10-man that week?

    Honestly, and I'm not being sensationalist here; This change will break a lot of well established guilds.

    I guess these guilds aren't a priority anymore.
    Warrior // Fury // www.redsunguild.com

  16. #1876

    Re: Cataclysm Raid Progression Refinements

    This thread delivers.
    Quote Originally Posted by Health View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Thereign View Post
    Besides, you don't gain any knowledge of a useful spec if you level as BM
    When you're asleep, me and an enchancement shaman are gonna enter your room and beastcleave you to tears.

  17. #1877

    Re: Cataclysm Raid Progression Refinements

    Quote Originally Posted by slopeslayer
    Coming from a 25man guild in HM's, i'm looking forward to this change.. No longer will 10-15 of us have to carry 10 other retards through hardmodes. It's hard to recruit 25 skilled players (protip: the reason why the good guilds are good is because they have 25 SKILLED players - who also receive welfare payments but that's another topic) on most servers so you have to do with 10 average duds who bring you down.

    With this change, these terrible players that we've been carrying will be kicked and the solid group of 10 players will smash through 10man hardmodes without a problem.

    I doubt any of the people in this thread are actually in a guild where they have 25 skilled players - otherwise they'd be a top 50 guild - so the bottom line is this.. the reason you are all upset can be described in these 2 scenarios:
    a) you are a terrible player (subconsciously know it) and will be kicked
    b) you enjoy the "epic feeling" (note: this feeling is purely subjective) and will miss 25mans
    ... scenario (a) being the most probable.

    Look at it this way: this system will reward the GOOD players and punish those who have been carried through all of wotlk.

    If you think otherwise, you are terrible or delusional (probably both)

    So what happens to the 5 "skilled" players when you form a 10 man from the 15 "skilled" players you have? They get left in the dust. My guess is, if you aren't one of those 10 picked....you'll change your toon about how great of a change this is.

    The same thing happened when TBC was released and Kara was the first 10 man raid...we went from 40 man raids...to...a 10 man.

  18. #1878

    Re: Cataclysm Raid Progression Refinements

    Quote Originally Posted by orsraunia
    At the same time look at:
    1. Sarth 3D - significantly harder at 10 when you couldn't faceroll it. Good guilds with 25man gear had serious trouble with it.
    2. If you lose 1 DPSer at a hard 10man heroic (and i mean when you don't outgear the encounter), it may pretty well mean that you have to call it a wipe. You need to lose like 3-4 in 25man.
    3. 25man means that will be a lot of people around with cool CDs that can use them and help with critical moments in a fight (e.g. after last air phase of Lanathel). You also have all available buffs and you can balance the raid's DPS and Healing plans better.
    4. Especially at the start of wotlk, 25man difficulty was a joke with the amount of AoE healing priests and druids could do.
    5. You might get away with 1 DCing and coming back after some time...
    I can go on...

    So, yes there are fights that are easier in 10man and some that are easier in 25man. I could even settle with 10mans being harder than 25mans intentionally.
    In fact, I'd welcome it. Also remember that there are examples, like ToC, where we had 25's normal giving better loot (and easier) than 10's heroic, which were
    a lot harder when you didn't outgear the content. Finally, about those that do statistical analysis to prove that it will be harder for them to get a piece of loot
    in 25's and thus there's no point in raiding 25's... I just laugh. I mean, yeah, you can be as shallow as this and play this game in the way that will give you teh
    epix in the easiest way and play the game in only that way, your choice. Still that doesn't mean that all of us are like you.



    Cant agree with you, sorry.

    1. About sarth 3d - 10 man was hard yes (harder than 25 man), but it wasn't meant to. Blizzard wrote a blue post about it saying that the fight wasn't suppose to be harder in 10, which was a mistake.

    2. About losing 1 man in 10hm = wipe. Well that isn't correct either. And try losing 3-4 men on a fight like 25 BQ hm, I would say that is a wipe. So that isn't a fact at all. Yes, ofc you need all the people alive in 10 man hm, just like you need it in 25 man hm.

    3. More buffs and cd in 25 man is ofc correct, but you have 15 more ppl to use them on aswell. The bosses have more hp, usually hit harder, usually more adds. The the fact that you have coordinate 25 man people in the same space that 10 man have. On fights like BQ, LK, Sindra, Saurfang where space is kinda an issue, you can feel the difference alot. But I cant agree that the balance is better just because you have more cd/buffs in 25 man. You usually have 2-3 healers in 10 man, and 5-6 in 25 man, but 15 more people in 25 man, I wouldnt say healing is easier and more balanced in 25 man. And about dps, sure you get more buffs = better dps, still doesnt make it easier.

    4. Yeah cause druids and priests couldnt do the same heals in 10 man? I woldnt say that the amount druids/priest could heal was the problem, the problem was the content. Naxx was super hard with 40 ppl in vanilla, in 25 man in wotlk it was almost a walk in the park. Not only had they nerfed the fights, removing the parts that really was hard in vanilla, but the different classes was now better than what the fights was originally build for (with all the new talents/skills). Having Naxx as a guildline is just not that good.

    5. Depends on who dced, tanks/healers, and we have a problem no matter if its 10/25 man.

    I'm sorry, I just can't buy that the 10 man is harder than 25 man. When it comes to ICC hm, almost all the fights in 10 man hm is much much easier than 25 man, no matter how much more buffs/cd you have.

  19. #1879

    Re: Cataclysm Raid Progression Refinements

    Quote Originally Posted by slopeslayer
    Coming from a 25man guild in HM's, i'm looking forward to this change.. No longer will 10-15 of us have to carry 10 other retards through hardmodes. It's hard to recruit 25 skilled players (protip: the reason why the good guilds are good is because they have 25 SKILLED players - who also receive welfare payments but that's another topic) on most servers so you have to do with 10 average duds who bring you down.

    With this change, these terrible players that we've been carrying will be kicked and the solid group of 10 players will smash through 10man hardmodes without a problem.

    I doubt any of the people in this thread are actually in a guild where they have 25 skilled players - otherwise they'd be a top 50 guild - so the bottom line is this.. the reason you are all upset can be described in these 2 scenarios:
    a) you are a terrible player (subconsciously know it) and will be kicked
    b) you enjoy the "epic feeling" (note: this feeling is purely subjective) and will miss 25mans
    ... scenario (a) being the most probable.

    Look at it this way: this system will reward the GOOD players and punish those who have been carried through all of wotlk.

    If you think otherwise, you are terrible or delusional (probably both)
    I seriously doubt you're in a 25m HM guild that killed any hard modes before the 10% buff went out. No guild was able to carry 10 incompetent retards through Sindragosa, Putricide, Deathwhisper or Saurfang hard modes early on. Anyone saying otherwise is just flat out lying. One mistake from a single person when the buff was at 0% or 5% on those fights meant a wipe. Those fights were just not doable with 10 people running around like morons.

    Pretty soon we'll be hearing, "5 man raids are the way to go. Now instead of 5 good players carrying 5 incompetent retards, we can have 5 awesome players in one raid." Then we'll be hearing, "5 man raids involve 1 good player carrying 4 incompetent players. Solo raids are the way to go!" and on and on. I'm sorry that your world 1000th guild carries scrubs but competent guilds that cleared most of the ICC HMs before the buff hit 10% were carrying at most 2-3 incompetent players. :

  20. #1880

    Re: Cataclysm Raid Progression Refinements

    Quote Originally Posted by jenseits
    Apparently you people are too short sided to see the bad side of this. This means we have to choose between doing content as a guild or lose everyone to separate 10 man groups. My guild has really come to know each other well and now we basically have to force everyone into the 25 man since they'll be locked otherwise.

    I can definitely seeing guilds dissolve over this
    Apparently you people are too short sited to see the bad side of this. This means we need to choose between recruiting 10 extra people and running 2 25 man groups, or forcing us to remove 15 of our friends and run 25 man content. My guild has come to know each other well, and now we have to choose between a bigger headache or losing people. The change from 40 man raids is a bad one.

    I can definitely see guilds dissolving over this.

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