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  1. #1921

    Re: Cataclysm Raid Progression Refinements

    Quote Originally Posted by Falkano
    Very sad day for wow really.

    The end of an era. Those who helped make this game as popular as it is now will remember the day when they 1st downed Ragneros,Nefarion,Ony,C Thun etc... those days when it felt like an epic achivement to finally take down one of these guys after weeks of trying, wiping, but persisting.

    The game has finally gone welfare epics friendly. Basically with this update comes blizz saying "hey those people who have no desire to be in a guild, have no desire to work at something, have no desire to put the effort into working as a guild, people who nerd quit after one wipe etc.. deserve the same equipment as everyone else!".

    Those people defending it saying "i don't have the time to 25 man", cut the bollocks. Doing 10 mans takes up many hours of your day just as doing 25 man does, the time consumption are longer only in difficulty.

    As others have mentioned with this logic why make raids at all? Why not just have 5 man runs, why not make gear based on how many emblems you can get from 5 mans. The only difference is the amount of people right? Dropping 15 players to 10 mans is a bigger drop then 10 mans to 5.

    Some of the things people are saying is just stupid "i can only play for 1hr a day, i should have the same gear by standing around in ironforge as some guy who put's lots of time into raiding". The system has changed from you earning it to you expecting it.

    Websites such as this that run to show what is happening, show HARDCORE guilds progress etc will be done. With a trillion 10 man guilds nobody will give a monkies about them. Everyone knows who has killed LK 25 on therir servers, nobody cares who has done it 10 man.

    So what annoys me about it is not that the gear is the same, but that blizz yet again change the raiding sytem to benefit those who can't be arsed to put the time in ahead of those who are here night after night trying to complete their content. It is a slap in the face of those who play in proper guilds. It really will be a game killer for some people. For those people who love the idea then i am happy for you. But when your strolling around in dalaran your look exactly the same, with the exact same gear score as the guy your trying to show off to. Your uniquness based on your achivements has gone. And in my opinion that is sloppy game designing.
    It's all about instant gratification. Long gone are the days of actually putting effort into your character's development, which is really what MMOs are supposed to be about.

  2. #1922

    Re: Cataclysm Raid Progression Refinements


  3. #1923

    Re: Cataclysm Raid Progression Refinements

    Quote Originally Posted by Zyneste/Leo
    Stop catering for players who havent got the tie and give them other goals to acheive. 25man was the best part of this wrath expansion which frankly wasnt anything on TBC. Why kill big raids to cater for those who cant be arsed to get into a 25man guild? If you dont have the time then why complain you cant do it. Honestly, Cata was looking nice but sharing a lock out period is complete nonsense and i hope they realise before multitudes of players leave. WHy bother 25manning now ( and more loot OMG YAY MOAR LOOT) means nothing
    Are people still seriously stuck on this issue?

    Players who haven't got the time pay the same monthly price as you do and they outnumber players with near-infinite play time by a large, LARGE margin. Blizzard would be fools not to cater to them.

    Quote Originally Posted by Auroya
    Is this the end of 25mans, dont know but i fear that a recruiting for a 25 man guild will be extremely difficult or listen to this salespeach”we offer 4 raidevenings a week, you get the same loot a bit less valor points and gold as you would have gotten in 1 evening of 10 mann raiding, you will probably have to switch on an encounter basis depending on encounter demands and which of your class collegues would like to raid on a given evening so you will not be guaranteed seeing all bosses every id”.
    Less valor points and gold than you'd make in 10 mans? Did you just misread the Blue post that said you'd get more from 25's, or are you just blatantly making stuff up to try and add more gloom and doom to the "Oh noes, it's the end of 25 mans" team? And now you're suggesting they'll bench people in 25 mans for specific fights when it's pretty commonly known that 10 mans generally have more issues with composition?

    I pity Blizzard sometimes. Whether they make the right decision or the wrong one, gamers will find a way to complain and if they can't think of a logical reason to complain, they'll start making stuff up to make sure they can continue their complaints. It's like it's a game in and of itself these days.

    It's a very simple concept. Some people LIKE 25 man raids. Some people don't. Some people run 25 mans even though they don't enjoy it to get gear. Will there be less 25 man guilds? Possibly, maybe even probably. Will there be none? No. Not remotely. If you enjoy 25 man raids for any reason OTHER than wearing shiny high ilvl gear and looking down your nose at people with lower level gear, then presumably there are other people like you who enjoy it for what it is and they will continue to band together to run 25 mans. Those that weren't interested in 25 mans but were forced to run them for gear upgrades, they'll get to shift to 10's and they'll be happier for it. Put straight, if you're only doing 25 mans for loot and not for the enjoyment of being in a 25 man, you're there for the wrong reason.

    If nothing else, it will lessen the absurd elitest attitudes of people who prefer 25 man raids, so people can no longer look at their gs boosted by 25 man gear and automatically think they're better than someone with a 10 man gs. That's a change I welcome wholeheartedly. I still don't agree with the shared lockouts, but that's a different subject entirely.

  4. #1924

    Re: Cataclysm Raid Progression Refinements

    Look:

    Saying a boss has a 12 item loot table, and they drop 5 pieces on 25-man, and 2 on 10-man. Say you want 1 specific item of a boss (and the boss couldn't drop double of the same item).

    Your Chances in 10-man of seeing it is 1/12 for the first item slot, 1/11 for the second.

    Your Chances in 25-man are 1/12,1/11,1/1/10,1/9,1/8 for each item slot

    Alot better chances of seeing loot you want to drop, even with the same # of items per players.

    Also, those who say 10-man ICC is faceroll: take off all your 264 gear and go kill LK (with or without the buff, which is about to be 15% soon). You can see how much gear trivializes mechanics.

    You have to look at the big picture here and stop applying current paradigms to the new system. Certain raid buffs are getting nerfed so you don't have to build a 10-man around raid buffs as much, which can allow for more difficult content.

  5. #1925

    Re: Cataclysm Raid Progression Refinements

    Consider this, 25-man raiders:

    You can only do either 10-man, or 25-man, effectively locking the amount of items you can get based on which ones you run.
    Suppose, for a moment, that 10-man drops 2 items while 25 drops 6.
    Seeing as the amount of items is tripled but the raid size isn't, we get:

    10-man: 1 item per 5 people per boss per week.
    25-man: 1,2 items per 5 people per boss per week.

    25-man is thus then a valid way to raid, as it gives everyone in the raid items faster than the ten-man raids. In the example provided the difference looks small but it adds up quite fast over time.
    Also, it's only an example, blizz might choose to go with 2 items vs 7 items or something, which increases the gains dramatically.

    So no, 25-man raiding will not die.

    The mistake people make in this thread is assuming the "more items in 25-man" will leave the items per amount of players value the same as in 10-man, which is obviously not the case.

  6. #1926

    Re: Cataclysm Raid Progression Refinements

    Quote Originally Posted by Onthar
    Also, those who say 10-man ICC is faceroll: take off all your 264 gear and go kill LK (with or without the buff, which is about to be 15% soon). You can see how much gear trivializes mechanics.
    I had like 2 pieces of 264 gear, which you can get for badges. It's not that hard.

  7. #1927

    Re: Cataclysm Raid Progression Refinements

    My guildmate described the new expansion very precisely it's:



    CASUALISM


  8. #1928

    Re: Cataclysm Raid Progression Refinements

    Quote Originally Posted by Nytmarex
    the problem is that blizz is making him have to choose to play with either his friends or his guild and that's not right
    The problem is that people have to guild with people they don't like(not friends) and carry 10-15 fail people through 25 man content and keep a guild stocked with 35ish players to run 25 mans.

    Most 25 man guilds will still run 25s to gear up faster. Guilds where people are tired of playing with those they don't like or are tired of carrying people through progression, will lose players.

    If a group of 15 good players switch to 10's, the 5 will be overflow or backup, just like they are with the extras needed to keep 25 going. Good players will still be able to find people to play with. Now they can just be more selective on who they group with.

  9. #1929
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    Re: Cataclysm Raid Progression Refinements

    Quote Originally Posted by ramsesakama
    1) If I cannot raid with my friends, they will not get into raiding.
    2) If I don't re-roll, I cannot raid with my friends and/or do 10-man for any other reason.
    3) Yeah, that will really go over well with the progression guilds.
    1) Ah yes, this is entirely Blizzard's fault that because 1 guy chose a progression guild over his friends, 9 other players will never raid. They totally should have designed raid content around this specific scenario.
    2 & 3) It's your choice to be in a guild with such strict rules. It is also your choice not to roll alts. It's your problem, not Blizzard's.

  10. #1930

    Re: Cataclysm Raid Progression Refinements

    Quote Originally Posted by Kathis
    Are people still seriously stuck on this issue?

    Players who haven't got the time pay the same monthly price as you do and they outnumber players with near-infinite play time by a large, LARGE margin. Blizzard would be fools not to cater to them.
    You can clear 11/12 ICC 25 HMs in 3-3.5 hours (even faster if you chain pull) right now. Any casual who doesn't have 3-4 hours to spare has no business playing this game. I think it's been mentioned in this thread and I've seen it before, but the average WoW player logs something like 20 hours a week in game. Even if that number is wrong and the actual number is half of that, that's still more than enough time to clear both 10 and 25 ICC. Casual my ass. :

  11. #1931

    Re: Cataclysm Raid Progression Refinements

    Less valor points and gold than you'd make in 10 mans? Did you just misread the Blue post that said you'd get more from 25's, or are you just blatantly making stuff up to try and add more gloom and doom to the "Oh noes, it's the end of 25 mans" team? And now you're suggesting they'll bench people in 25 mans for specific fights when it's pretty commonly known that 10 mans generally have more issues with composition?
    no in my experience we have a about 35 mann raid team and in the 10 mann raid we have about 11-13 that rotate so yes on some nights we are benching people alot of people in the 25 mann raid simply becuase we dont have 100% attendence for every raider and because for certain fights saurfang hm for instance its cool to have 3 holy paladins for mark healing we have exactly 3 holy paladins so we bring them all in for that and have to swap than for later encounter course 3 holy paladins is not really that cool for anything else.

    when you have a raidweek of 4 days you simply dant always be sure of 100% attendence from all the other people neither schould you leading to the logical concequens of having to build a bigger raidpool where people will have to swap if there are to many of a certain class or role for certain encounters.
    in 10 mans with 1 raid day a week the problem of getting a full raid is easier, 1 couldn't this week ok ask a class colleague if he wants to but if 25 man ok 5 or 6 cant go this thursday this ones a nice guy but hes got a big test week atm = you have to have a raidpool thats big enough to accomodate that. And people mature enough to be able to accept that its a big raidpool and you cant always get to kill all bosses.

  12. #1932

    Re: Cataclysm Raid Progression Refinements

    Quote Originally Posted by Sabbie
    lol,
    bc = I miss vanilla ; ;
    Wotlk = I miss BC ;;
    Cata = I miss wotlk ;;
    At least they are consistent

  13. #1933

    Re: Cataclysm Raid Progression Refinements

    Quote Originally Posted by LittleMissSwift
    At least they are consistent
    i lol'd. ty :P

  14. #1934

    Re: Cataclysm Raid Progression Refinements

    Quote Originally Posted by Falkano
    Very sad day for wow really.

    The end of an era.
    No, its not.

    The game has finally gone welfare epics friendly. Basically with this update comes blizz saying "hey those people who have no desire to be in a guild, have no desire to work at something, have no desire to put the effort into working as a guild, people who nerd quit after one wipe etc.. deserve the same equipment as everyone else!".
    ..Where does it say that, I can't seem to find it. People who do 10 mans now will continue to do them in Cataclysm. So they get the same level of gear? So what? They already said that 25 mans would drop much more loot per player, so people who do 25 mans will be able to gear faster then people who do 10 mans.

    Those people defending it saying "i don't have the time to 25 man", cut the bollocks. Doing 10 mans takes up many hours of your day just as doing 25 man does, the time consumption are longer only in difficulty.
    ...Do you even raid with 24 other people? It is not easy. At all. In an old guild, we barely got past beasts in 25 man ToC, but our 10 mans would clear the entire instance in less then an hour. 25 man requires much more time because not everyone in the raid is competent. 10 mans would be more efficient, with equally geared people, allowing for a much smoother and less time consuming experience. So yes, people really don't have 13 hours to spend on the computer.

    Some of the things people are saying is just stupid "i can only play for 1hr a day, i should have the same gear by standing around in ironforge as some guy who put's lots of time into raiding". The system has changed from you earning it to you expecting it.
    There are only a small portion of these people, and you don't get epics from standing around in Ironforge. People who are too lazy to earn their gear aren't going to be doing 10 mans.

    Websites such as this that run to show what is happening, show HARDCORE guilds progress etc will be done. With a trillion 10 man guilds nobody will give a monkies about them. Everyone knows who has killed LK 25 on therir servers, nobody cares who has done it 10 man.
    Oh, I get it now. Like 95% of the other QQers, this is related to e-peen. "This change is shit, how will I be able to show other players how better I am?"

    So what annoys me about it is not that the gear is the same, but that blizz yet again change the raiding sytem to benefit those who can't be arsed to put the time in ahead of those who are here night after night trying to complete their content. It is a slap in the face of those who play in proper guilds. It really will be a game killer for some people. For those people who love the idea then i am happy for you. But when your strolling around in dalaran your look exactly the same, with the exact same gear score as the guy your trying to show off to. Your uniquness based on your achivements has gone. And in my opinion that is sloppy game designing.
    ...Wow, so you really just confirmed that you are pissed because you can't show off? "Oh well, if I can't brag about my gear score, then that is sloppy game design". So you'd rather have trade filled with "LFM ICC 25 pst GS and Achieve", then actually allow Blizzard to do away with all of it? Try to listen to yourself...it really is quite petty and selfish.

    And what is with all this bullshit about guilds dying? This change would encourage people to join guilds, which would allow for larger guilds per server, or a lot of 10 man guilds. What would you rather do: Pug a 10 man, wipe at the second boss, and then be fucked, with no gear, for the rest of the week? Or join a guild, clear a 25 man, and actually progress? People need to stop whining, and start thinking.

  15. #1935

    Re: Cataclysm Raid Progression Refinements

    Quote Originally Posted by Punks
    Anyone truly complaining is just arguing for arguing sake.

    There is nothing wrong with this, This changes 0 for a Hard Core Guild (makes it easier now that you can still raid if your short on your 25 man HM)

    Casuals that RAID WELL will love it as well.

    Only people complaining are MMO-C Whiners/Babies, Bad casuals, and asshats who just argue so they can.
    THIS.

    Also,this is an announcement for CATACLYSM,stop with the totally irrelevant comparisons of the raid difficulties of 10 VS 25 now.

    This is a big move by Blizzard,they have a lot of stuff to do with balance/design of the raids.

    And the sweetest news is their move on visuals that you can recognize,"This loot drops from X boss cause its ABC" omg best news ever.

  16. #1936

    Re: Cataclysm Raid Progression Refinements

    Quote Originally Posted by Axelhander
    My laughter. It grows louder.

    aaaaaaaaaaaaaa hahahahaha!!! ;D :P
    Let me join in the fray AHAHAHA *choke*

  17. #1937

    Re: Cataclysm Raid Progression Refinements

    Quote Originally Posted by LittleMissSwift
    At least they are consistent
    Tell me please, who are these evil them who deserve such contempt? I suppose you are a cool guy who has a life and has no time for silly videogames? And them are stupid basement dwelling nerds (and trailer trash) who can raid for 59944349 hours a week?

    As people above said, you need only 5-7 hours total during entire week to clear current tier of content. OK, ad in doing ICC10 and 25, and ToC10&25 AND ToGC10&25 and you need a whole lot of time, but that is nor needed nor anything close to casual.

    And "I pay same $$$" argument. No, just no. While preventing all paying customers to access all content would be a bad thing, when formulated like that; here we are talking about "I want to see all content and get all KEL LEWT by logging on, clicking a button, playing 30 minutes and logging off".
    There is a huge difference between "not allowed to see content you pay for" and "not willing to invest any time and effort and demanding all the rewards".

    But Blizz made their decision about game design and it is very unlikely that minority voice can change it.



    OTOH, thank Blizz for saving me money and time. This way at most I'll buy Cata and play for one month to get to 85 and fly around to see the new world and /wowquit.

    25 man raids are already greatly diminished compared to 40 mans of old. And 10 man are more like double teamed heroic 5mans then raids. This move will most likely kill 25s leaving only 10s. And afaik WOW was supposed to be MMORPG. "Massively", hear that word? There's not much massive or epic about 10 man roflstomps. And for the thousandth time, other then admittedly broken fights (Sarth3D 10), 10 mans will always have less challenge and complexity than 25 or 40s, simply because small number of people, possible pool of MTs and OTs, THs and RHs is not only smaller, its pretty much nonexistent in 10 mans. There is not enough people in 10 to fill all roles we have seen over years in larger raids.

  18. #1938

    Re: Cataclysm Raid Progression Refinements

    Forgive me, but I seem to have forgotten what MMORPG stands for? Can someone please help me out?

    The RPG part I get, but I just can't seem to remember the MMO part. Anyone?


    Blizzard, I don't like having to deal with 9 other people to get the best loot in the game. I just don't really get along with others. Can you please make a single player version of raids as well? While you're at it, I would also like a God mode so when I get frustrated I still can have a means to get my loot.

    Thanks!!

  19. #1939

    Re: Cataclysm Raid Progression Refinements

    With my reading: I believe that it will really come down to how much more gear is dropped in the 25mans versus the 10man raids. One more piece per boss? Two? Three? This will be a large factor IMO about what guilds are going to choose to do either a 25man raid or a few 10mans; especially with the share lock-out factor. Personally, I enjoyed running a 25man on Tuesday and then running 10mans during the week. I also think that there already exists a "badge cap" in terms of Frost emblems. I think it will be interesting to see just what they put the cap at with the "Valor point" system. Going over to the Emblem/point changes: It will be interesting to see what the ratio is in conversion, especially when converting from PvE to PvP point systems.

    Overall, I was at first rather irritated at these changes, and I'm not exactly an old player, many would still consider be a new guy for only playing for a little over a year. Having had time to sit down and think about it...I'm still not very happy with some of the raid changes (share-lock outs, etc..) but I'm willing to give Blizz the benefit of the doubt and see what they do. They haven't killed this cash cow yet and I doubt they will any time soon.

    So, lets see what ya got Blizz.

  20. #1940

    Re: Cataclysm Raid Progression Refinements

    In terms of tuning, we want groups to be able to jump into the first raids pretty quickly, but we also don’t want them to overshadow the Heroic 5-player dungeons and more powerful quest rewards. We’ll be designing the first few raid zones assuming that players have accumulated some blue gear from dungeons, crafted equipment, or quest rewards. In general, we want you and your guild members to participate in and enjoy the level up experience.
    Bringing the fun back to WoW is a welcome change.

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