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  1. #1

    Cataclysm Raid Progression Refinements

    Update - Added clarifications at the end of the post.

    Cataclysm Raid Progression Refinements
    Cataclysm will change a couple of things to the raiding system apparently. "Too long didn't read" version:

    • 10-Man and 25-Man raids will share the same lockout.
    • 10-Man and 25-Man raids difficulty will be as close as possible to each other.
    • 10-Man and 25-Man raids will drop the exact same loot, but 25-man will drop a higher quantity of items.
    • Normal versus Heroic mode will be chosen on a per-boss basis in Cataclysm raids, the same way it works in Icecrown Citadel
    • For the first few raid tiers, our plan is to provide multiple smaller raids. Instead of one raid with eleven bosses, you might have a five-boss raid as well as a six-boss raid.

    Originally Posted by Nethaera (Blue Tracker)
    We're continuing to refine the raid progression paths in Cataclysm, and we'd like to share some of those changes with you today. Please enjoy!

    The first of the refinements being made is that we're combining all raid sizes and difficulties into a single lockout. Unlike today, 10- and 25-player modes of a single raid will share the same lockout. You can defeat each raid boss once per week per character. In other words, if you wanted to do both a 10- and 25-person raid in a single week, you’d need to do so on two different characters. Normal versus Heroic mode will be chosen on a per-boss basis in Cataclysm raids, the same way it works in Icecrown Citadel. Obviously the raid lockout change doesn't apply in pure Icecrown terms though, as this change goes hand-in-hand with a few other changes to raid progression in Cataclysm.

    We're designing and balancing raids so that the difficulty between 10- and 25-player versions of each difficulty will be as close as possible to each other as we can achieve. That closeness in difficulty also means that we'll have bosses dropping the same items in 10- and 25-player raids of each difficulty. They'll have the same name and same stats; they are in fact the exact same items. Choosing Heroic mode will drop a scaled-up version of those items. Our hope is that players will be able to associate bosses with their loot tables and even associate specific artwork with specific item names to a far greater extent than today.

    Dungeon Difficulty and Rewards
    • 10 and 25-player (Normal difficulty) -- Very similar to one another in difficulty; drop the exact same items as each other.
    • 10 and 25-player (Heroic difficulty) -- Very similar to one another in difficulty; drop more powerful versions of the normal-difficulty items.

    We of course recognize the logistical realities of organizing larger groups of people, so while the loot quality will not change, 25-player versions will drop a higher quantity of loot per player (items, but also badges, and even gold), making it a more efficient route if you're able to gather the people. The raid designers are designing encounters with these changes in mind, and the class designers are making class changes to help make 10-person groups easier to build. Running 25-player raids will be a bit more lucrative, as should be expected, but if for a week or two you need to do 10s because half the guild is away on vacation, you can do that and not suffer a dramatic loss to your ability to get the items you want.

    We recognize that very long raids can be a barrier for some players, but we also want to provide enough encounters for the experience to feel epic. For the first few raid tiers, our plan is to provide multiple smaller raids. Instead of one raid with eleven bosses, you might have a five-boss raid as well as a six-boss raid. All of these bosses would drop the same item level gear, but the dungeons themselves being different environments will provide some variety in location and visual style, as well as separate raid lockouts. Think of how you could raid Serpentshrine Cavern and Tempest Keep separately, but you might still want to hit both every week.

    We do like how gating bosses over time allows the community to focus on individual encounters instead of just racing to the end boss, so we’re likely to keep that design moving forward. We don't plan to impose attempt limitations again though, except maybe in cases of rare optional bosses (like Algalon). Heroic mode may not be open from day one, but will become available after defeating normal mode perhaps as little as once or twice.

    In terms of tuning, we want groups to be able to jump into the first raids pretty quickly, but we also don’t want them to overshadow the Heroic 5-player dungeons and more powerful quest rewards. We’ll be designing the first few raid zones assuming that players have accumulated some blue gear from dungeons, crafted equipment, or quest rewards. In general, we want you and your guild members to participate in and enjoy the level up experience.

    We design our raids to be accessible to a broad spectrum of players, so we want groups to be able to make the decision about whether to attempt the normal or Heroic versions of raids pretty quickly. The goal with all of these changes is to make it as much of a choice or effect of circumstance whether you raid as a group of 10 or as a group of 25 as possible. Whether you're a big guild or a small guild the choice won't be dependent on what items drop, but instead on what you enjoy the most.

    We realize that with any changes to progression pathways there are going to be questions. We're eagerly awaiting any that we may have left unanswered. To the comments!
    Extra Information
    Originally Posted by Zarhym (Blue Tracker)
    Here are some clarifications to a few common questions we're seeing.

    Regarding how the raid dungeons will share the same lockout. This means that you cannot do separate instances in the same week. If you defeat an encounter in 10 player normal mode then you are locked to the 10 player mode of that dungeon for that week and can flip between 10 player normal and 10 player heroic on a per boss basis (assuming heroic is available). In this scenario you cannot do the 25 player version. Is this correct?

    Correct. There should be no circumstances under which you kill a boss more than once per week on the same character. However, in the same way that you can decide on a per-boss basis whether to try normal vs. hard mode, we might allow you to change between 10 and 25 on a per-encounter basis for additional flexibility. If you started a raid in 25-player mode and then found that you couldn’t get everyone together later in the week, you might be able to downsize the next few bosses to 10-player.

    Will legendary items be available through 10 player dungeons? How about special mounts like Invincible?

    In some of these specific cases, the answer is that we just don’t know yet. We’re going to have to walk a fine line between dropping the same items in both 10- and 25-player modes, versus still offering something extra for the 25s. If we over-reward the 25s, then players who like 10-player raiding will still feel compelled to find more warm bodies. If we don’t provide any extra incentive for 25s, then some players may stop playing with their friends in order to avoid the extra organization required for a large raid.

    Overall, our goal is that you make the decision between whether to raid with 10 players or 25 players based on what you find fun and not because of the reward structure.

    For perspective, it might help to look back at how we changed lockouts and hard modes on every single raid tier of Wrath of the Lich King to see what felt right and try to fix problems that arose from previous tiers. After seeing the first tier of Cataclysm raiding, we may decide to adjust our design for the next tier.

    How many pieces of loot will drop for 10 and 25 player modes respectively?

    When we say “25 should drop more loot,” we’re just sharing a philosophy. You shouldn’t assume that this means that 10-player modes will drop 1 item or that 25-player modes will drop 6 items, or whatever. We haven’t finalized how much loot will drop, but our general goal is that 25s should drop more to help make up for some of the logistical cost.

    Will achievements be broken down by 10/25 modes? Will realm first achievements/titles be only for 25s? Will meta-achievement mounts be available for both versions still?

    There will just be raid achievements, not 10- vs. 25-player versions in most cases. The achievement won’t care if you complete it in 10s or 25s. If we do meta-achievement mounts, it’s possible we’d still have different colors of mounts, or maybe even different mounts; but for some players that might mean that 25s feels mandatory again, which would be a potential problem. This is the kind of thing we’re going to have to consider carefully, and again, we might try a few different implementations before sticking with something we like.

    We’re also not sure about realm first achievements or titles. We don’t want to encourage, say, 25-player focused guilds to run a 10-player raid instead because they think that will get them the ream first title faster. One potential solution is you can earn a realm first title in 10 or 25, but not both. These types of achievements also serve as great content for guild achievements.

  2. #2

    Re: Cataclysm Raid Progression Refinements

    Can't wait for the comments on this.

  3. #3

    Re: Cataclysm Raid Progression Refinements

    Quote Originally Posted by fxrs
    Can't wait for the comments on this.
    I don't raid very much, so my opinions don't hold much weight but... I think these are really cool changes.

    I'm sure there will be a lot of nerd raging though...
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  4. #4

    Re: Cataclysm Raid Progression Refinements

    I like it.

  5. #5

    Re: Cataclysm Raid Progression Refinements

    Quote Originally Posted by fxrs
    Can't wait for the comments on this.
    inb4 flood of tears?

    I really don't know if gating is the right thing. But at least they take out attempts I think they saw it is a flawed approach. The other changes are great. But there will be sooo much QQ. I see it coming (probably while I write this there are already 20 crying replies)

    This definitely kills wow because it makes the game even more casual...and all the stuff you hear all the time.
    Samin
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    So, what would be your reaction, if you found out, that come cata release first patch, blizzard were planning to kill everyone by sending a bear through the mail?
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    And when you see them you'll be all like :O and we'll be all like and then people on the forums will still be all like(╯°□°)╯︵ ┻━┻

  6. #6
    Stood in the Fire Dakario's Avatar
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    Re: Cataclysm Raid Progression Refinements

    Quote Originally Posted by Aphroditi
    I don't raid very much, so my opinions don't hold much weight but... I think these are really cool changes.

    I'm sure there will be a lot of nerd raging though...
    Indeed
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  7. #7

    Re: Cataclysm Raid Progression Refinements

    Making 25 man raiding pointless one step at a time?

  8. #8

    Re: Cataclysm Raid Progression Refinements

    A dig at the casuals!!! at last being in a guild will mean something again, cant just roll into random 10 man and then 4 boss 25 man to gear up.

    Top idea imo and a step in the right direction!!

  9. #9

    Re: Cataclysm Raid Progression Refinements

    Well that sounds like übershit

  10. #10

    Re: Cataclysm Raid Progression Refinements

    Quote Originally Posted by Aphroditi
    I don't raid very much, so my opinions don't hold much weight but... I think these are really cool changes.

    I'm sure there will be a lot of nerd raging though...
    It will limit the number of badges whatever they are called.

  11. #11

    Re: Cataclysm Raid Progression Refinements

    sounds like a balancing nightmare, but if they pull it off then its all good

  12. #12
    Mechagnome Khraine's Avatar
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    Re: Cataclysm Raid Progression Refinements

    Change happens deal with it. I think its a bit meh for combining the loot, but i'm all for it (moar badges)

    we can had beta plx?

  13. #13
    Dreadlord Metian's Avatar
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    Re: Cataclysm Raid Progression Refinements

    I like it. And think a lot of guilds are going to like this.
    ALTF4.

  14. #14

    Re: Cataclysm Raid Progression Refinements

    Great changes.
    Signature size violated forum rules.

  15. #15

    Re: Cataclysm Raid Progression Refinements

    This is a giant slap to the face. 25man will be more or less pointless now and with only 1 lockout a week people will clear it in 1-2 days and then go afk for the rest of the week?

  16. #16
    Mechagnome Furbolg's Avatar
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    Re: Cataclysm Raid Progression Refinements

    Wow, that's all excellent news! Finally I can focus entirely on my preferred format (10 man) and get the same loot as 25 man raiders \o/
    My main: Druid
    I prefer challenging small group content with friends, as opposed to faceroll random matchmaking content with anonymous assholes.

  17. #17

    Re: Cataclysm Raid Progression Refinements

    Wow.. What a bold direction to take raiding. I really don't have a reaction because I'm still in a state of shock at this news.

  18. #18

    Re: Cataclysm Raid Progression Refinements

    ow...
    A hero of war, yeah that's what I'll be. And when I come home, they'll be damn proud of me

  19. #19

    Re: Cataclysm Raid Progression Refinements

    Terrible idea.


  20. #20

    Re: Cataclysm Raid Progression Refinements

    Pretty sad to condemn Hardcore guilds. I hope this is not definite.

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