Cataclysm Raid Progression Refinements

[Frozenbeef]

poor raiders...

*remembers his conversations with raiders in the past week*

lol raiders got pwned 0o

[boomboomba]

What the hell am I going to do for the rest of the week after 25 mans now.

Uhmm how about not playing WoW?

[b4t3m4n]

Good and bad. It needed to be done because it was never clear what being a good 10 man raider meant. You didn't get the same loot so you must be less skilled as a raider? Even though there are some encounters that are actually more difficult with less people because of less healers.


Bad because they need to just kill 25 mans completely and let the fallout come. They would be pretty irrelevant at this point. I know people are going to explode with this news and it will be a complete shit storm, but how many times have you had a 25 man fall apart because some guy didn't show up, or keep getting d/c'ed, or your guild just doesn't comfortably have 25 people up for a raid on an average night.

The difficulty of an encounter should not be keeping 25 people on the same page, but each person's skill and understanding of their class.

[Athcat]

retarted piece of crap srsly

[Zodiak]

Good Idea and Bad Idea.

Good:

Less raiding to one character. If you wanna raid the entire week, this forces you to gear up and prepare other characters... mmm alts becoming nearly mains... I dig that.

10 mans becoming preparation and practice for the 25 mans to gear the whole raid/guild. I think were going with the attempts strategy of the hardcore guilds (lvling alts similar to their mains to get practices and not wasting attempts or in this case, bosses). I like it.

25 mans are NOT gonna die. they will become a more enjoyable experience overall.


Bad:

Balancing nightmare which will take weeks / months to get right. ( Hope beta gets it right.)

Those with only one player, are screwed. They might as well prepare to level another to keep their raiding experience intact.

[Axelhander]

Simple facts :

I'm going to enjoy tearing this apart with actual reason. ;D

1) 25 man raids >>>> 10 man raids in difficulty no matter what. It's simple maths. 10 people are much easier to coordinate and work together than 25.

Wrong at worst, misguided at best. Raid rewards are individual rewards (i.e., they don't just apply to raid dungeons and they don't stop working if you leave a guild). The individual challenge of a given encounter, therefore, is the measure of what constitutes a fitting reward. Individual challenge is not inherently larger in a bigger group, and you couldn't prove it so if your life depended on it. Blizzard couldn't even do it, despite preaching nonsense, and they're finally seeing that.

You can design a 1-man encounter with more individual challenge than a 40-man encounter, or a 40-man encounter with more individual challenge than a 10-man encounter, or any variant. Your claim is bogus and not indicative of "simple math."

2) Encounter complexity in 10 man will always be lower than that of a 25 man unless they dumb down the 25man content.

Wrong, for reasons already stated.

3) Gold in wow doesn't matter anymore, so even if a boss drops 100g more for each one in raid (which wont happen imo) it would still be useless.

Bullshit argument supported by zero backing evidence = you're an imbecile. Provide empirical evidence showing this will impact the value of gold in-game. Do it.

4) Unless they make 25 man bosses drop 3x more items than 10 man, 25mans will die. Simple math again. It would be much better for a guild to run 2x10 man raids than 1x25 since people will get more loots MUCH easier.

That's probably the plan, but we'll have to see.

In my opinion, what they should do is:

Never become a game designer. Thanks.

[talrob]

As a 10 man strict raider....

F**KING GET IN!

[ketzil]

Anyone truly complaining is just arguing for arguing sake.

There is nothing wrong with this, This changes 0 for a Hard Core Guild (makes it easier now that you can still raid if your short on your 25 man HM)

Casuals that RAID WELL will love it as well.

Only people complaining are MMO-C Whiners/Babies, Bad casuals, and asshats who just argue so they can.

QFT

People really seem to dismiss hardmodes. The hardcore guilds are the only one who really utilize them when they are relevant to the "world/realm-firster" crowd. So really, expect the changes to be more natural than you think.

[berree]

I guess ill have a MAIN main and just a plain old main now lol

[Frozenbeef]

my face when i heard these changes

yeh...i wouldnt post pictures of yourself on the inteweb if i was you...0o

[Sirath]

I raid in a 25 man guild and we are currently sitting at 8/11 H in ICC. My views are a bit meh with a bit of Interesting.

Pros:

- Less complication in the loot pravado of we must run 10 mans as well as 25 per week because some BiS items drops in 10 man Heroic. Lets face it. I love 25 man raiding but I don't want to be hassled all the time with a 10 man raiding. Not that I don't enjoy the 10 mans I love that as well but it is better to focus on One.
- Altoholic love. I have a lot of a alts and I wish to be able to gear them up. This means I can easily make 10 man runs with alts and gain some good equipment on them with the added free time I will have per week. If you don't have or like alts well sux 2 be u!
- I love the fact we get more instances. I'm easily all for 5 bosses per raid with new scenery, style, features, and feel. Than 12 bosses of the same shit all week long.
- No more raid canceled for 25 man groups. For some reason a lot of players suddenly need to go on break or its vacation time like chrismas. Why cancel a raid when you can just make 10 mans and go.

Cons:

- Uniqueness is dying. Lets face it this began the moment we hit WoTLK. To me I hate how they made PvE stuff easily acquirable and less unique compared to PvP. When I wear my raiding gear I like to stand out a little. People recognize that this dude raids heroic instances and that is hard earned gear. I don't want people to just look like the guy next to me that simply grinded the badges for it. Give a player some Epeen so to speak >.>
- No fix for difficulty factor.

Suggestions:

- Reverse the gating system. Make it heroic available only to give the hardcore players an advantage over casuals. Giving them a chance to gain the lead and recognition they deserve. Then unlock normal mode by time. This means players will be able to catch up to the hardcore players.
- You made 10/25 man loot the same? Fine.. Make Normal vs Heroic Look different. I don't mean just recoloring I mean make it look a bit more badass. Best example is Teir 7 vs t7.5 and PvP gear. Lower teir looks meh, higher tear looks badass (some may argue but this is pure for example sake)

[Klypto]

I'd rather there remained some rewards for 25 man over some loot, but I can see this as beneficial to the game as a whole.


E.G., keeping the "Legendary Quest Items" in 25 man raids yet the loot remains similar throughout. There needs to be at least some motivation for 25 man content, besides a giant achievement for you. Idk, maybe achievement mounts will be confined to 25 mans but it still seems silly to me.

[Zearth]

So, I am waiting for raid bosses to be available for weeks. "Raids" having 5-6 bosses and 25man raids that have no real purpose anymore, The only updrage I'm getting is saying "heroic" and I should be in joy? I have to say that I'm not excited about any of this. Please let beta loose and let us decide..

[Seregon]

Yeah screw people who prefer the face passed epic feel of 25 man raids in favour of the slow, watered down 10man guilds@@@@@@@@@!!!!!!!!!!!

Honestly the only people here being selfish jerks are 10man guilds. With 10/25 lockouts you get your 10man raids to enjoy and 25man raids enjoyed by 25man guilds. This is just you guys being little selfish kids butthurt because you can have 264 level items like those mean old 25 man raiders.

Seriously, get a life you scum.

OK... I'm not sure whether you're actually trying to troll or are getting sincerely upset about this. 25 man raids will still be available to those who prefer them and to be honest, they will be more beneficial if you read the original post by Bibi.

[Tauror]

Boub, if you are reading this, can you please add Guild Leveling and Path of Titans on your OP? Their importance affects this change.

Thanks.

[zeralol]

this change will definetely kill wow.
as mentioned before every 25 hardcore raiding guild has 10 core players. they will go straight their way and leave the rest alone..
many players will get bored and im sure that a lot of inactive player wont come back to cataclysm after reading this change and much more active players will quit wow.

and to argue with "25 man will drop more items" is fucking stupid
youve more people to gear up, seriously. that does not make any sense.


the only reason to maintain a 25 man raidgroup will probably be a well placed ranking @ wowprogress.com - nothing else.

gratz blizzard - fucking retards!

[Twintop]

This is a really great idea for one reason: item level. Look at WotLK as an example: epic items between 200 and 284, but without the extra level of gear every content patch added by 10mans we'd probably be down somewhere around 245-251. It is much easier to create and tune encounters when there's a better known incoming gear level. Blizzard admitted that with 3.1 and the introduction of hard modes it screwed up their gear scaling plans...hopefully this will prevent that from happening again.

[Everafter]

If I ever got any doubts about buying Cata, I don't now.
I'm getting it. I can raid with my friends now, not my friends and 15 additional monkeys trained to tank, heal and dps - and not feel like I'm missing out on best stuff.

[Mokona]

I love it.
Just yesterday I was saying to a friend that 10-man and 25-man should drop the same loot and .. there it is. ^^
And the other changes even exceeded my expectations.

[Tangster]

Have some faith in Blizz, i know its hard to do but try. Every expac everyone says OMG WOW KILLER QQ about half the stuff that comes out. The casuals love this, the hardcores hate this. But i'm loving the fact that good quest rewards and heroics will actually matter.
No more ding 80, faceroll roics, Tank LF ICC