Cataclysm Raid Progression Refinements

[Cronnix]

I LOVE THIS

Finally I can play with my irl friends without missing out on the loot that 25 man raiders get

You are aware that they are getting better loot for more effort, and for not being casual and logging in once a week to do a 10man, right?

[Tharkkun]

Thats not even true. 95% of the guilds that cleared 10 man first did it in TOC gear.

Yup, they downed it in TOC25m or TOGC25 man gear. Which is overgearing the instance. If you had more than 232/245 heroic TOGC10m gear than you were overgearing
the instance. Don't even try and tell me the 1st guild to kill LK10man was a strict 251 ilevel 10man guild. They had 25 man ICC loot.

That's overgearing the instance. I did the same, shrug but this is why the 10m's seem easier.

[edw]

come on with the 5 man raids, i know you want them blizz

[azrielstear]

Im not sure if this will kill 25-mans...

Unless someone has already mentioned this but what about the Guild Progression system. I bet doing 25 man raid will net guilds more experience or points toward guild stuff than 10 mans.

[Deleted]

Cry me a river..

[Deleted]

Some people in the comments have thrown around the whole "guild levelling" as being the new bellwether for measurement of end-game participation, but really in my experience most people play for their own personal and instant gratification - for which loot is pretty much the best reward mechanism - with a lesser focus on guild pride, progression, and achievements. Without doing an exhaustive search, I'd say maybe 1 in 5 people in a progression guild do things like collect achievements and whatnot, while the rest are primarily gear motivated.

Ah, but that's the thing, in Cataclysm, you will be rewarded greatly for guild leveling. Including guild gear and recipes. As soon as anyone leaves the guild, the gear will revert back to the guild bank. So, expect guild legendaries, for example. I doubt people would care about invidualism by then.

Also, it punishes the loot whores.

[Naydie]

You are aware that they are getting better loot for more effort, and for not being casual and logging in once a week to do a 10man, right?

You are aware loot is just pixels, right? The only thing this change does is make 10man less of a joke, great for people who prefer smaller groups.

I wonder if there will be easier raids aimed at casuals in cataclysm.

[Videl]

Why don't they just start giving out tier loot for badges from dailies and get it done with?

Oh... wait... never mind

My largest regret is that I didn't stop my 6month recurring subscription in time after ToC hit.... and I had so much hope for Cata to... :-\

[Malthurius]

I think it's great they are removing the need for 10 man raids to progress in PvE.

[Tirator]

The ONLY way this could be a good thing is if they bumped 10-man difficulty up to 25-man difficulty instead of dumbing 25-man down to 10-man. This I wouldn't mind. However, if this goes down vise-versa, this is going to absolutely ruin the game for Hundreds of thousands of players. Ends of story.

We all know how often people QQ about Blizzard making things better for casuals and less difficult for hard core guild, the guilds that actually make this game what it is, but it is true. Every patch almost it seems like they are making the game more and more casual friendly and making the serious players less and less important.

[soradakey]

And Less Lockout means more time to lvl alts and explore the new world+getting more Lockout hen you get to 85!

It is your free time spend it however you want. If you want to only do one 10m or one 25m then level alts go ahead. What you are saying is since you don't know how to manage your own time you want blizzard to force you, and everyone else, to only do one 10m or 25m, instead of you doing your thing, while others spend their time doing what they want.

[Cronnix]

You are aware loot is just pixels, right? The only thing this change does is make 10man less of a joke, great for people who prefer smaller groups.

I wonder if there will be easier raids aimed at casuals in cataclysm.

I duno how come you see 10man as a joke. The current loot is decent for the amount of time you spend setting the raids together and leading it.

[sephrael]

Ah, but that's the thing, in Cataclysm, you will be rewarded great for guild leveling. Including guild gear and recipes. As soon as anyone leaves the guild, the gear will revert back to the guild bank. So, except guild legendaries, for example.

There is very little evidence of how "great" these items will be, if the heirlooms are useful for anything but levelling, how expensive they will be, how many a guild can own.. etc etc. All I've seen from Blizzard on the subject was guild-wide crafting recipes, and heirlooms.. not legendary items, and then the guild talents which seem mostly along the lines of "that was easy" buttons for the more tedious aspects of raids. Unless the guild levelling is going to give tangible rewards to everyone without absurd cost, it's not going to really mitigate the problems I'm talking about very much. You can hold it up guild levelling as a talisman all you want, but there's very little data from Blizzard to support these claims (unless I've missed a blue post somewhere).

[Smoopie]

i love the change do to the fact that i am an adult and have a job. i dont want to raid every night.

20 gunship kills on 10 man
5 rotface

That isn't raiding every night, that is raiding less than 2 hours a week..

[shandala]

Dear idiots that claim it will be slower to gear in 25 mans.

"so while the loot quality will not change, 25-player versions will drop a higher quantity of loot per player"

meaning that if 10 mans drop 2 pieces (1 piece for every 5 players) then 25 mans will drop at least 6 items.

[Deleted]

This change is just fantastic! I mean who isn't bored of clearing the same instance twice every week... It gets dull really fast. Im also loving the idea of multiple shorter raid instances (like SSC/TK) for the variety it brings.

[sneaky7]

* 10-Man and 25-Man raids will share the same lockout.

Good.

* 10-Man and 25-Man raids difficulty will be as close as possible to each other.

Hmmm...

* 10-Man and 25-Man raids will drop the exact same loot, but 25-man will drop a higher quantity of items.

BAD!

* Normal versus Heroic mode will be chosen on a per-boss basis in Cataclysm raids, the same way it works in Icecrown Citadel

Will do.

* For the first few raid tiers, our plan is to provide multiple smaller raids. Instead of one raid with eleven bosses, you might have a five-boss raid as well as a six-boss raid.

Hmmm...

As it was allready mentioned in this thread, such changes make a risk of completely killing off the idea of 25-man raiding. Giving same loot in both 25 and 10 is quite a big step towards it. The fact, that the difficulty is promised to be same, is not any close to being an excuse. This will rather encourage people to keep on with 10-mans instead of 25!
Not only it is easier to gather 10 people instead of 25. There is something even worse. If the "overall difficulty" will be equal for 25 and 10, then, actually, in 10-man a player's skill and attention will play higher role, than they do in 25. The 25s are fun because they are more competitive. So if 10-mans actually provide more competition per player, then hardcore players will rather focus on them.
And the epic-horny people will have no serious reason to set up for 25 man raids, since they can get all the same loot in 10. The only reason for them to go 25 would probably be if the 25s "per-player" difficuly becomes indeed much easier than that of 10-mans.

[Arachnan]

Can everyone please STOP saying 10 man guilds can only contain casual people?
I am in a 10 man guild raiding 1-2 nights a week, killed LK and have 9/12 10 man HC on farm.

My guild loves this change, as this means we no longer have to pug shitty 25 man raids to get equal gear as people facerolling trough normal 25 man ICC.

[dvdconway]

Can everyone please STOP saying 10 man guilds can only contain casual people?
I am in a 10 man guild raiding 1-2 nights a week, killed LK and have 9/12 10 man HC on farm.

My guild loves this change, as this means we no longer have to pug shitty 25 man raids to get equal gear as people facerolling trough normal 25 man ICC.

Why are you PuG'ing ICC25? So you can faceroll through your 10HC? kk

[Naturae]

Here's my issue with this: Your raiding guild raids 25 mans. You get a boss that has a fight mechanic much like Blood Queen or Deathbringer Saurfang of which you have to be positioned correctly, you have a few attempts at it but don't get very far and you still have a fair number of people messing up.

Here's the issue: Now the GM/Raid Leader decides, "This will be much easier if we set this to 10 man because we will have a lot more room to work with and it's easier to coordinate." So the raid leader goes and moves 15 people out. Now they do the boss in 10man mode, one or two-shot it because it was a mere coordination fight and was only difficult because the space in the room was a limitation. Now the other 15 people don't get any loot, what-so-ever...

And the best part of it all, because this imaginary boss we're using will always be easier on 10man than 25, this path of having 15 people sit out will continue to happen until A) Guilds fall apart, or B) Blizzard does something to prevent this while still making this concept work.