Cataclysm Raid Progression Refinements

[Conchur]

This is just plain dumb, Blizz should go back to designing seperate 10 and 25 man content with appropriate gear drops in each. Unless the increased number of items per boss in 25 mans is way more than 2.5 times that of 10 mans, which I doubt, 25 mans will be pointless unless they stick in some cool 25 man achievement rewards which again I doubt.

So all in all 25 man raids will be gone, considering quitting after 5 years now

[Astarion45]

Finally hard mode 10 man players get rewarded for their hard work and won't have to have equivilent gear of 25 man normal mode players! This is a great change for my guild since we only have the people for 10 man, I hope that they stay true in making 10 man normal and hard mode roughly as hard as 25 player mode so that it doesnt become pointless to do 25 player mode but I'm glad that theres a reason to do 10 mans when you could do 25 player mode instead.

Dark approves! ^^

Who refers themselves in the 3rd person on forums... go away.

[Baervar]

How will they balance 10 mans to be about as difficult as 25 mans? They have to take into consideration missing some buffs in some 10 mans which can hurt dps quite a lot. Unless they give more buffs to more classes which fucks over hybrids in 25 mans since progression guilds will just go with a 10 man party worth of raidbuffs then just fill in all other spots with pure-dps classes (+healers).

Otherwise if they can keep the ammount of new/good content going i don't mind that much. Sure i'll remember with nostalgia they days where i had to work for activating a HM through some neat/witty mechanic in Ulduar, but meh. It's a constantly simplifying world it seems.

[soradakey]

Pretty sure they just compared fast food to WoW, shit is getting serious!!!!

Ok how about this. Someone getting paid $12 an hour getting paid $10 an hour for the same amount of work.

Now please find some insult about my comment instead of a valid point why I am wrong.

[diemor]

Pretty sure they just compared fast food to WoW, shit is getting serious!!!!

I lol'd

[Rasjar]

Also, this is a troll comment, but it's probably partially true.

I gurantee most of the people that are /cheer are the ones whom aren't good enough to be in decent 25-man guilds. So if the 10-man difficulty is scaled higher in Cata, they probably aren't ever going to complete the new 10-mans either / get decent trinkets on ends bosses anyway, so nothing changes for them. LOL.

If 10-man's were reguarly as difficult as Heroic mode 10-mans today, then this is definitely true, they shouldn't be cheering. =P

One word, Clueless

[TabascoEU]

The ballance can't be made indeed. But not for this "1 simple reason". Go read the news about healing system in Cata...

I am quite aware that fights are meant to be less "bursty" however in terms of dps the tank will take from the mobs, 10 man can't run close to 25 man without running the healers oom....and tanking is all about reducing damage taken, and the requirement of a tank come from being a focal point for the majority of the damage, so the tanks will still be hit hard otherwise you might aswell have a rogue tanking. In 10mans the tank if left alone will always have a greater time to live. e.g. 15secs in 10 man 6 secs in 25 man. That will still be true, purely because you can't throw as much healing at the tank in 10man, ergo. No challenge to the tanks, the tanks can have the reactions of a dead fish and still survive. You gear differently for 10 mans, suddenly EH isn't important because you are receiving baby hits, so you gear for avoidance/efficiency, which again makes it less demanding.

[Jathro]

TBC: 10 and 25 man raids are different content with different loot.
WOTLK: 10 and 25 man raids are the same content with different loot.
Cataclysm: 10 and 25 man raids are the same content with the same loot.

You can see this is going down the shitter real fast

QFT

[Astarion45]

Ok how about this. Someone getting paid $12 an hour getting paid $10 an hour for the same amount of work.

Now please find some insult about my comment instead of a valid point why I am wrong.

It was just funny, you referenced fast food in regards to WoW, what is going on that little head of yours!

[Undercovercracker]

I hate using realism with WoW but shouldnt 10 mans be harder anyways. I mean if youre some amazing champion going into a dungeon there wouldnt be a button to adjust the difficulty. Therefore the less people you have to fight the big bad monster the harder it will be.

[Baervar]

TBC: 10 and 25 man raids are different content with different loot.
WOTLK: 10 and 25 man raids are the same content with different loot.
Cataclysm: 10 and 25 man raids are the same content with the same loot.

You can see this is going down the shitter real fast

I'll always regret not starting to play during TBC really

[Topples]

This is huge. Absolutely love it though! Although I really hope they make it to where 25 man doesn't completely go extinct. Mount rewards only found in 25 would be one way to help that but it may need a little more..

[soradakey]

That wasn't me earlier, when i said "Now please find some insult about my comment instead of a valid point why I am wrong." I was refering to what I said in defense of darkdragon or w/e his/her name was.

It was just funny, you referenced fast food in regards to WoW, what is going on that little head of yours!

[Tang]

So what do you like? Wendy's? What if their 5 pc chicken nugget turned into a 2 pc chicken nugger for the same price. Some people would still go there if they enjoy it.

If they still enjoy it then they still enjoy it. If the price goes up or the quantity goes down then I am going to be unhappy about it, but in the end I just decide whether its still worth going there. Taco Bell used to have fajita wraps, which were fucking awesome. Then one day, they got rid of them, and they've never had anything as good since then. They used to have Dr pepper (my favorite) and then they got rid of that for Code Red, and then they got rid of THAT for some other even crappier Mt Dew Product. My response? I don't write them nasty letters about how they suck. I just eat there a lot less.

People still like the game they just may have problems with changes and deal with it , doesnt mean they cant express their disapproval. At a glance thats how I feel , my raid time got cut in half UNLESS they make more raids, which is what I said in numerous posts before. It's all early n e ways.

Complaining about something is fine, up until the point where it's obvious that your complaints are not going to be listened to, and then it's just complaining for the sake of complaining. When it's obvious where the tend arrow is pointing (and to a lot of people it's pointing down) then it's time to put on some grown up pants and make a decision instead of whining impotently like a child.

Complaining about this change in philosophy is fine. Blizzard could still change their mind. Complaining about the overall trend of the game, talking about how Blizzard has just been screwing it up for years now, is stupid. If it's really been YEARS that you've been playing a game that doesn't give you joy, then it's possible that Blizzard is wrong, but it's a GUARANTEE that you are stupid.

[HavokHeart]

Hardcore WoWing is like Headbanging to Simon and Garfunkel. :

Seriously 10 man and 25 man.. hel;l make a 5 man version. if its just as hard its just as hard.. i dotn get it.. is it the loot drama you crave.. or the 24 other guildies who fawn over you?

[Vengeblade]

This would make them "equally hard", but still in different way... In 25 people would need more organization and teamwork, and in 10 each person would have to be more skilled personally.

Well I did provide ways that Blizzard might use to make them equal, never said fair. I'd rather have it equal, but in slightly different ways than have little equality because they can't get it the same.

Honestly, most people who can only runs 10s that I've seen, have great personal skill. Most people who run mostly 25s I've seen are less personally skilled and more about group efforts and communication. People who do both usually do well at both.

This is just my opinion, not something with charts and stats, just an observation. However, with that observation, I see the move 10s being more about personal skill and 25s more about group skill a fine way to have them equal and give the same gear (25s giving more of them still a key factor).

[skaarrj]

Just a BIG NO !

Clearly. You know what all this sounds like?

It sounds like the people who have a ton of time to raid are afraid of this change, because it threatens their ability to obtain loot quickly, and be unique in wearing said loot (or more unique) now more than ever with this change in mind.

Sucks for you guys.

[sneaky7]

I am quite aware that fights are meant to be less "bursty" however in terms of dps the tank will take from the mobs, 10 man can't run close to 25 man without running the healers oom....and tanking is all about reducing damage taken, and the requirement of a tank come from being a focal point for the majority of the damage, so the tanks will still be hit hard otherwise you might aswell have a rogue tanking. In 10mans the tank if left alone will always have a greater time to live. e.g. 15secs in 10 man 6 secs in 25 man. That will still be true, purely because you can't throw as much healing at the tank in 10man, ergo. No challenge to the tanks, the tanks can have the reactions of a dead fish and still survive. You gear differently for 10 mans, suddenly EH isn't important because you are receiving baby hits, so you gear for avoidance/efficiency, which again makes it less demanding.

This might be not true. The tank will take less damage per second in 10-mans, but there are also less healers to heal him. If they are not good enough, his hp will drop down to 0 and he will die. With the new model, it is easier to ballance the difficulty of healing in 10-mans and 25-mans.
However, i still think that the overall difficulty can't be matched.

[Luls]

You're right it doesn't, but there are many people out there with very valid points on both sides of the argument.

That's true, for example the one regarding balancing 10man against 25man sounds like a troublemaker. I don't think anyone should quit if they enjoy the game but are dissatisfied with these changes, but the constant "everything was better 5 years ago" leaves me wondering why on earth these people still play after the exponential decline in their idea of quality. I don't think I've seen a single post on any forum that isn't in blue font supporting gating, but they still decided to bring the element into the next expansion. Sometimes you (not you, the caps lock guys) just have to grit your teeth and make a decision if this is such a bad change that it isn't worth it anymore.
Too bad they don't know how to fucking read.

[evilgnomey]

OK guys READ very carefully...

cataclysm will have multiple tier raids - "For the first few raid tiers, our plan is to provide multiple smaller raids. Instead of one raid with eleven bosses, you might have a five-boss raid as well as a six-boss raid." this saves you getting saved to one main raid on 25 man and not being able to continue due to people not showing up for progression.

"10-Man and 25-Man raids will share the same lockout."

this is very smart and a great idea, if you have a smaller guild you can go 10 man on all raids and have the same loot as people who go through and do them on 25 man but more people = more loot. if your guild has a shortage of numbers to continue a 25 man for that week then you can continue your 10 man raid..

here's what you can do if your in a smaller guild:
-10 man Skywall.
-10 man Blackwing Descent.
-Possibly try and pug a 25 man Grim batol with randoms or another guild.
-Try some 10 man bosses on Heroic.

larger guilds:
-25 man Skywall.
-25 man Blackwing Descent.
-25 man Grim Batol.
-Try some 25 man bosses on heroic.

larger guilds but someone doesn't show/pugs:
-25 man Skywall (people may not show after first night so continue other raids).
-10 man Blackwing Descent.
-10 man Grim Batol.
-Try some 10 man bosses on heroic.