Cataclysm Raid Progression Refinements

[steinn]

I think I'm enjoying this thread almost as much as I'll enjoy waving goodbye to 25mans.

[sneaky7]

This is just my opinion, not something with charts and stats, just an observation. However, with that observation, I see the move 10s being more about personal skill and 25s more about group skill a fine way to have them equal and give the same gear (25s giving more of them still a key factor).

Ha, then they should make 40s instead of 25s. 10s for personally skilled players, 40s for teamwork-skilled players. =)

[SoulPoetry]

qqqqqqqqqqqqqqqq. How dare you support this.

inb4 ban. also, looking forward to this change.

[Asmordean]

TBC: 10 and 25 man raids are different content with different loot.
WOTLK: 10 and 25 man raids are the same content with different loot.
Cataclysm: 10 and 25 man raids are the same content with the same loot.

You can see this is going down the shitter real fast

TBC started out with you needing 10 man gear to effectively do 25. It was idiotic of them and they admit it. It caused a lot of problems.

While I liked the way ICC was done I can see the justification. Same IDs slows progression a lot and reduces gear inflation which is a problem.

Yes, I am a 25 man raider. Very well geared because of it and even I like this idea. We've had nights were 2 people were DCing constantly, 5 didn't show so we have people on alts or casuals in raid to fill up the numbers, one guy has to leave early etc... With Cata that means you stop, zone out turn it to 10 man, go back in and continue.

[Epicadin]

OK guys READ very carefully...

cataclysm will have multiple tier raids - "For the first few raid tiers, our plan is to provide multiple smaller raids. Instead of one raid with eleven bosses, you might have a five-boss raid as well as a six-boss raid." this saves you getting saved to one main raid on 25 man and not being able to continue due to people not showing up for progression.

"10-Man and 25-Man raids will share the same lockout."

this is very smart and a great idea, if you have a smaller guild you can go 10 man on all raids and have the same loot as people who go through and do them on 25 man but more people = more loot. if your guild has a shortage of numbers to continue a 25 man for that week then you can continue your 10 man raid..

here's what you can do if your in a smaller guild:
-10 man Skywall.
-10 man Blackwing Descent.
-Possibly try and pug a 25 man Grim batol with randoms or another guild.
-Try some 10 man bosses on Heroic.

larger guilds:
-25 man Skywall.
-25 man Blackwing Descent.
-25 man Grim Batol.
-Try some 25 man bosses on heroic.

larger guilds but someone doesn't show/pugs:
-25 man Skywall (people may not show after first night so continue other raids).
-10 man Blackwing Descent.
-10 man Grim Batol.
-Try some 10 man bosses on heroic.

The problem is no incentive to do 25s...

[Tang]

inb4 ban. also, looking forward to this change.

HAHA that guy got nuked from orbit before I could even report his post. Moderators are ON IT.

[soradakey]

That's true, for example the one regarding balancing 10man against 25man sounds like a troublemaker. I don't think anyone should quit if they enjoy the game but are dissatisfied with these changes, but the constant "everything was better 5 years ago" leaves me wondering why on earth these people still play after the exponential decline in their idea of quality. I don't think I've seen a single post on any forum that isn't in blue font supporting gating, but they still decided to bring the element into the next expansion. Sometimes you (not you, the caps lock guys) just have to grit your teeth and make a decision if this is such a bad change that it isn't worth it anymore.
Too bad they don't know how to fucking read.

I'm reminded of a post on the MLG forums not to long ago about how game company's basically hypnotize(for lack of a better word) their consumers. IfI come across it again I will post the link.

[Zweistein]

this is a great change tbh (if you don't play wow)

[Badpriest]

"We’re also not sure about realm first achievements or titles. We don’t want to encourage, say, 25-player focused guilds to run a 10-player raid instead because they think that will get them the ream first title faster. One potential solution is you can earn a realm first title in 10 or 25, but not both. These types of achievements also serve as great content for guild achievements."

Because it makes sense that the most qualified guild for the realm first shouldn't be able to get both, right?

[Etna]

i dont like it i hate it :X i have a casual guild and we do 25 normal he are at 9/12 normal mode, i am here because i have friends and for the funny moments.

But when the raid is over i go with the other hardcore members to ICC 10 man we are at 12/12 normal mode and 8/12 HC, we are realy focus in this kind of grup no time to be funny no screw ups no nothing, we do it to porve we are bether we want to get bether and bether, we like new hard stuff (everygame new game i start i go on hardest dificulty avaiable pnly guitar hero i had to start in normal and god of war at the last boss had to start in normal cause i couldnt kill him in hard mode :X but i manage to kill him in hardmode later XD)

This changes would screw us big time cause if we want to do the hard stuff we couldnt get saved in 25man version, wicth means we couldnt raid with our friends :X

now if they put HC mode in a diferent lockout it would also be fucked, lets see guild exemple 25man grup only does 4/6 of random raid, if we get our 10 man grup and go there we can do 6/6 but if we do that it will screw 15 guys that were saved with us :X they cant get to try and learn the mechanics of the fight cause there is no boss.

[Ollakka]

Amazing!

Now i can choose between 10man and 25man.
Instead of being forced to 25man for ALOT better rewards.

And the big bonus is that i can clear stuff with friends only... instead of looking for 10-15 more players and risk getting retards to raid.

Tho i will focus on 25mans if it is posible with my guild when catalysm hits.

+ Dont need to stack paladins for raids anymore...
+ This allows more players focus on PvE content
+ Less time spend on making 10man and 25man gear and more time spend on making new instances and better looking gear.

[Vehemence]

Fuck you Kotick.

[Smolderthorn]

Alright,
So what I read now is basicly feeling like "Hello world. We disapprove 25 man raids, because people can't clear all the content in pugs. So we'll make it split in small bits and equalize the gear so even the most worthless scrub can PUG the instance"

I am very curious what this system will bring to their customers, which already are unhappy on many varying aspects.
What I expect is a decline in the amount of 25 man raids, resulting in only small 10 man raidguilds which eventually may end up in putting more people out than keeping them in. Atleast a sane guild wouldn't go with 6 different 10 man groups, I guess?

I really wonder how this will turn out, but as I read it it'll be a dealcloser for me to quit PVE forever.

[Keo]

LoL @ all the casuals LOVING THIS CHANGE.



WoW is dead, FF14, lets go.

[evilgnomey]

The problem is no incentive to do 25s...

more people will get loot, possibly more guild currency to spend? guild achievements, maybe special mounts that only drop in 25 mans?

you have NO idea what they have planned... no one does.

[TabascoEU]

This might be not true. The tank will take less damage per second in 10-mans, but there are also less healers to heal him. If they are not good enough, his hp will drop down to 0 and he will die. With the new model, it is easier to ballance the difficulty of healing in 10-mans and 25-mans.
However, i still think that the overall difficulty can't be matched.

Lets go with a single 'main' tank fight which there will still be some of they are quite common.

The model for 25 mans, is you can have 2+ people 100% focused on the tank, with another 4+ able to help/assist.
The model for 10 mans, is you can perhaps have 1 person 100% focused on the tank, with another 1-2 able to assist.

Yet the tank has identical gear. In the 25 man the healers have more guaranteed buffs/regens. In the 25 man the raid is more likely to have more tank saving cooldowns, think guardian spirit/palas/pain suppresion etc.

So we can 100% guarantee the tank will not even receive comparable damage. So the requirements for the tank to be quick on reactions for a last stand/shield wall/blocks/barkskin etc. etc. isn't there. They literally just have to put the gear on, hold aggro, move the boss occasionally, and attend. It is so bad for tanking and the excitement/joy that comes from tanking a hard fight.

Basically as you say, the only way a tank should die in 10 man is .... sleepy healers or OOM healers.

in 25 man there can be so many more ways.

[Luls]

I'm reminded of a post on the MLG forums not to long ago about how game company's basically hypnotize(for lack of a better word) their consumers. IfI come across it again I will post the link.

Hypnosis only works if you allow it to

[Zogrim]

Clearly. You know what all this sounds like?

It sounds like the people who have a ton of time to raid are afraid of this change, because it threatens their ability to obtain loot quickly, and be unique in wearing said loot (or more unique) now more than ever with this change in mind.

Sucks for you guys.

that's the point. People who like to put much effort and time into the game just won't be able to do so in cataclysm.
Hello World of Casualcraft.

[Tacculan]

I like the idea of making one raid lockout and similar loot between 10 and 25 modes, but like other people have said, it completely kills the idea of 25s... there is now no point in doing 25s except for fun if you can even get 24 other people to join a raid with you. My proposal is that there should be more levels of difficulty, rather than just two. If you have 3 or 4 different difficulties and different item levels for the same raid, it can appeal to every level of player. The casual raiders can stick with the normal difficulty and possibly go to higher difficulties. If they can't, they are able to stick with the item level that their ability deserves. As their skills increase, they can move on and get better gear. The highest level of the raid would be so hard that even the best players would have trouble with them. They can still progress and have fun without being considered equal to casuals no matter their level of skill or effort, so the game can cater to all types of players, not just casual.

[Calaba]

Lol all the QQ.

Look, we know why they're doing this; it's to stop 25man guilds farming the 10mans for emblems and extra loot, as well as using 25man gear to outgear these 10man instances. Yes, it'll go live. No, it won't kill off 25man guilds, as the new guild talents system will prevent this; it'll most likely be better to have a guild that can do 25man stuff than 10man stuff.

End of.