1. #1021

    Re: Cataclysm Raid Progression Refinements

    Hardcore WoWing is like Headbanging to Simon and Garfunkel. :

    Seriously 10 man and 25 man.. hel;l make a 5 man version. if its just as hard its just as hard.. i dotn get it.. is it the loot drama you crave.. or the 24 other guildies who fawn over you?
    "Those who dance appear insane to those who can't hear the music." ~~ George Carlin


  2. #1022
    High Overlord Vengeblade's Avatar
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    Re: Cataclysm Raid Progression Refinements

    Quote Originally Posted by sneaky7
    This would make them "equally hard", but still in different way... In 25 people would need more organization and teamwork, and in 10 each person would have to be more skilled personally.
    Well I did provide ways that Blizzard might use to make them equal, never said fair. I'd rather have it equal, but in slightly different ways than have little equality because they can't get it the same.

    Honestly, most people who can only runs 10s that I've seen, have great personal skill. Most people who run mostly 25s I've seen are less personally skilled and more about group efforts and communication. People who do both usually do well at both.

    This is just my opinion, not something with charts and stats, just an observation. However, with that observation, I see the move 10s being more about personal skill and 25s more about group skill a fine way to have them equal and give the same gear (25s giving more of them still a key factor).
    Start by assuming that everything you've ever known is a lie.....

  3. #1023

    Re: Cataclysm Raid Progression Refinements

    Quote Originally Posted by Vanilla
    Just a BIG NO !
    Clearly. You know what all this sounds like?

    It sounds like the people who have a ton of time to raid are afraid of this change, because it threatens their ability to obtain loot quickly, and be unique in wearing said loot (or more unique) now more than ever with this change in mind.

    Sucks for you guys.

  4. #1024

    Re: Cataclysm Raid Progression Refinements

    I am quite aware that fights are meant to be less "bursty" however in terms of dps the tank will take from the mobs, 10 man can't run close to 25 man without running the healers oom....and tanking is all about reducing damage taken, and the requirement of a tank come from being a focal point for the majority of the damage, so the tanks will still be hit hard otherwise you might aswell have a rogue tanking. In 10mans the tank if left alone will always have a greater time to live. e.g. 15secs in 10 man 6 secs in 25 man. That will still be true, purely because you can't throw as much healing at the tank in 10man, ergo. No challenge to the tanks, the tanks can have the reactions of a dead fish and still survive. You gear differently for 10 mans, suddenly EH isn't important because you are receiving baby hits, so you gear for avoidance/efficiency, which again makes it less demanding.
    This might be not true. The tank will take less damage per second in 10-mans, but there are also less healers to heal him. If they are not good enough, his hp will drop down to 0 and he will die. With the new model, it is easier to ballance the difficulty of healing in 10-mans and 25-mans.
    However, i still think that the overall difficulty can't be matched.

  5. #1025

    Re: Cataclysm Raid Progression Refinements

    Quote Originally Posted by soradakey
    You're right it doesn't, but there are many people out there with very valid points on both sides of the argument.
    That's true, for example the one regarding balancing 10man against 25man sounds like a troublemaker. I don't think anyone should quit if they enjoy the game but are dissatisfied with these changes, but the constant "everything was better 5 years ago" leaves me wondering why on earth these people still play after the exponential decline in their idea of quality. I don't think I've seen a single post on any forum that isn't in blue font supporting gating, but they still decided to bring the element into the next expansion. Sometimes you (not you, the caps lock guys) just have to grit your teeth and make a decision if this is such a bad change that it isn't worth it anymore.
    Too bad they don't know how to fucking read.

  6. #1026

    Re: Cataclysm Raid Progression Refinements

    OK guys READ very carefully...

    cataclysm will have multiple tier raids - "For the first few raid tiers, our plan is to provide multiple smaller raids. Instead of one raid with eleven bosses, you might have a five-boss raid as well as a six-boss raid." this saves you getting saved to one main raid on 25 man and not being able to continue due to people not showing up for progression.

    "10-Man and 25-Man raids will share the same lockout."

    this is very smart and a great idea, if you have a smaller guild you can go 10 man on all raids and have the same loot as people who go through and do them on 25 man but more people = more loot. if your guild has a shortage of numbers to continue a 25 man for that week then you can continue your 10 man raid..

    here's what you can do if your in a smaller guild:
    -10 man Skywall.
    -10 man Blackwing Descent.
    -Possibly try and pug a 25 man Grim batol with randoms or another guild.
    -Try some 10 man bosses on Heroic.

    larger guilds:
    -25 man Skywall.
    -25 man Blackwing Descent.
    -25 man Grim Batol.
    -Try some 25 man bosses on heroic.

    larger guilds but someone doesn't show/pugs:
    -25 man Skywall (people may not show after first night so continue other raids).
    -10 man Blackwing Descent.
    -10 man Grim Batol.
    -Try some 10 man bosses on heroic.

  7. #1027

    Re: Cataclysm Raid Progression Refinements

    I think I'm enjoying this thread almost as much as I'll enjoy waving goodbye to 25mans.

  8. #1028

    Re: Cataclysm Raid Progression Refinements

    This is just my opinion, not something with charts and stats, just an observation. However, with that observation, I see the move 10s being more about personal skill and 25s more about group skill a fine way to have them equal and give the same gear (25s giving more of them still a key factor).
    Ha, then they should make 40s instead of 25s. 10s for personally skilled players, 40s for teamwork-skilled players. =)

  9. #1029
    Warchief SoulPoetry's Avatar
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    Re: Cataclysm Raid Progression Refinements

    Quote Originally Posted by QuantumGnome
    qqqqqqqqqqqqqqqq. How dare you support this.
    inb4 ban. also, looking forward to this change.

  10. #1030

    Re: Cataclysm Raid Progression Refinements

    Quote Originally Posted by Heroic Martyr
    TBC: 10 and 25 man raids are different content with different loot.
    WOTLK: 10 and 25 man raids are the same content with different loot.
    Cataclysm: 10 and 25 man raids are the same content with the same loot.

    You can see this is going down the shitter real fast
    TBC started out with you needing 10 man gear to effectively do 25. It was idiotic of them and they admit it. It caused a lot of problems.

    While I liked the way ICC was done I can see the justification. Same IDs slows progression a lot and reduces gear inflation which is a problem.

    Yes, I am a 25 man raider. Very well geared because of it and even I like this idea. We've had nights were 2 people were DCing constantly, 5 didn't show so we have people on alts or casuals in raid to fill up the numbers, one guy has to leave early etc... With Cata that means you stop, zone out turn it to 10 man, go back in and continue.

  11. #1031

    Re: Cataclysm Raid Progression Refinements

    Quote Originally Posted by evilgnomey
    OK guys READ very carefully...

    cataclysm will have multiple tier raids - "For the first few raid tiers, our plan is to provide multiple smaller raids. Instead of one raid with eleven bosses, you might have a five-boss raid as well as a six-boss raid." this saves you getting saved to one main raid on 25 man and not being able to continue due to people not showing up for progression.

    "10-Man and 25-Man raids will share the same lockout."

    this is very smart and a great idea, if you have a smaller guild you can go 10 man on all raids and have the same loot as people who go through and do them on 25 man but more people = more loot. if your guild has a shortage of numbers to continue a 25 man for that week then you can continue your 10 man raid..

    here's what you can do if your in a smaller guild:
    -10 man Skywall.
    -10 man Blackwing Descent.
    -Possibly try and pug a 25 man Grim batol with randoms or another guild.
    -Try some 10 man bosses on Heroic.

    larger guilds:
    -25 man Skywall.
    -25 man Blackwing Descent.
    -25 man Grim Batol.
    -Try some 25 man bosses on heroic.

    larger guilds but someone doesn't show/pugs:
    -25 man Skywall (people may not show after first night so continue other raids).
    -10 man Blackwing Descent.
    -10 man Grim Batol.
    -Try some 10 man bosses on heroic.
    The problem is no incentive to do 25s...


  12. #1032

    Re: Cataclysm Raid Progression Refinements

    Quote Originally Posted by SoulPoetry
    inb4 ban. also, looking forward to this change.
    HAHA that guy got nuked from orbit before I could even report his post. Moderators are ON IT.

  13. #1033

    Re: Cataclysm Raid Progression Refinements

    Quote Originally Posted by Luls
    That's true, for example the one regarding balancing 10man against 25man sounds like a troublemaker. I don't think anyone should quit if they enjoy the game but are dissatisfied with these changes, but the constant "everything was better 5 years ago" leaves me wondering why on earth these people still play after the exponential decline in their idea of quality. I don't think I've seen a single post on any forum that isn't in blue font supporting gating, but they still decided to bring the element into the next expansion. Sometimes you (not you, the caps lock guys) just have to grit your teeth and make a decision if this is such a bad change that it isn't worth it anymore.
    Too bad they don't know how to fucking read.
    I'm reminded of a post on the MLG forums not to long ago about how game company's basically hypnotize(for lack of a better word) their consumers. IfI come across it again I will post the link.

  14. #1034
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    Re: Cataclysm Raid Progression Refinements

    this is a great change tbh (if you don't play wow)

  15. #1035

    Re: Cataclysm Raid Progression Refinements

    "We’re also not sure about realm first achievements or titles. We don’t want to encourage, say, 25-player focused guilds to run a 10-player raid instead because they think that will get them the ream first title faster. One potential solution is you can earn a realm first title in 10 or 25, but not both. These types of achievements also serve as great content for guild achievements."

    Because it makes sense that the most qualified guild for the realm first shouldn't be able to get both, right?

  16. #1036
    Deleted

    Re: Cataclysm Raid Progression Refinements

    i dont like it i hate it :X i have a casual guild and we do 25 normal he are at 9/12 normal mode, i am here because i have friends and for the funny moments.

    But when the raid is over i go with the other hardcore members to ICC 10 man we are at 12/12 normal mode and 8/12 HC, we are realy focus in this kind of grup no time to be funny no screw ups no nothing, we do it to porve we are bether we want to get bether and bether, we like new hard stuff (everygame new game i start i go on hardest dificulty avaiable pnly guitar hero i had to start in normal and god of war at the last boss had to start in normal cause i couldnt kill him in hard mode :X but i manage to kill him in hardmode later XD)

    This changes would screw us big time cause if we want to do the hard stuff we couldnt get saved in 25man version, wicth means we couldnt raid with our friends :X

    now if they put HC mode in a diferent lockout it would also be fucked, lets see guild exemple 25man grup only does 4/6 of random raid, if we get our 10 man grup and go there we can do 6/6 but if we do that it will screw 15 guys that were saved with us :X they cant get to try and learn the mechanics of the fight cause there is no boss.

  17. #1037

    Re: Cataclysm Raid Progression Refinements

    Amazing!

    Now i can choose between 10man and 25man.
    Instead of being forced to 25man for ALOT better rewards.

    And the big bonus is that i can clear stuff with friends only... instead of looking for 10-15 more players and risk getting retards to raid.

    Tho i will focus on 25mans if it is posible with my guild when catalysm hits.

    + Dont need to stack paladins for raids anymore...
    + This allows more players focus on PvE content
    + Less time spend on making 10man and 25man gear and more time spend on making new instances and better looking gear.




  18. #1038

    Re: Cataclysm Raid Progression Refinements

    Fuck you Kotick.

  19. #1039

    Re: Cataclysm Raid Progression Refinements

    Alright,
    So what I read now is basicly feeling like "Hello world. We disapprove 25 man raids, because people can't clear all the content in pugs. So we'll make it split in small bits and equalize the gear so even the most worthless scrub can PUG the instance"

    I am very curious what this system will bring to their customers, which already are unhappy on many varying aspects.
    What I expect is a decline in the amount of 25 man raids, resulting in only small 10 man raidguilds which eventually may end up in putting more people out than keeping them in. Atleast a sane guild wouldn't go with 6 different 10 man groups, I guess?

    I really wonder how this will turn out, but as I read it it'll be a dealcloser for me to quit PVE forever.

  20. #1040

    Re: Cataclysm Raid Progression Refinements

    LoL @ all the casuals LOVING THIS CHANGE.



    WoW is dead, FF14, lets go.

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