Cataclysm Raid Progression Refinements

[Abnell]

And sarcasm is like my 2nd language, so.. I'm right there with ya.

I'll remember this post for the next expansion when they faze out 10mans and 5mans become the new way of experiencing content. Then you can say "how fun it is trying to get 10 people on at the same time to raid. Splitting up into 5s wouldn't be more convenient without any downside at all..."

Yeah, you see what I did there.

You're totally right, this isn't dumb because it could be even dumber!

[TabascoEU]

For those who say this will "kill" 25-man: Why save something that you have to force people to do? If no one wants to do it, it deserves to die.

I 100% prefer 25 mans over 10 mans. I avoid 10 mans like the plague. Not forced at all so it doesn't deserve to die. Making the game cater for incompetents, does however.

[soradakey]

For those who say this will "kill" 25-man: Why save something that you have to force people to do? If no one wants to do it, it deserves to die.

How exactly are people forced to do 25m?

[Tankette]

Sounds like the end of 25s to me. I enjoy 10s as well so maybe it won't be so bad. With only 1 lockout per instance I think there will be a lot more alt raids instead of doing both a 10 & 25 on mains. I think this could reduce the value of being in a large raiding guild though. There are likely to be a lot more small raiding guilds.

[rainy]

Looks like balancing problem. Spreading, for example, isn't problem in 10m at all. While in 25m something like BQL flight always can turn to wipe. Saying boss A will be easier in 10m, any harcore 25m guild will call out 15 people to kill him ASAP.

[Luls]

If you read the artical to the end, or perhaps more carefully, they say that not all developers make games with enslaving or addicting their consumer base as their top priority, but that the people just become addicted only because the game fills a void in their life. This is why I believe the people who constantly bitch about what blizz does every patch continue to play. That being said i'm not bashing your opinion at all.

Well I gotta admit I just skimmed quickly through it, possibly/probably coloring it with my own biased view on the subject heh. And I agree, it's the same reason I play it, although not so much anymore (hopefully that will change in Cataclysm.)

And I never interpreted what you said as bashing, it's just nice reading something that isn't literally a thousand posts written by the internet Nostrodamus. Wish there was more like it. Oh well.

[nikat]

Tell this to the Lich King 25 heroic.

In the WotLK content there have been heroic/hard modes favoring both, 10 or 25m, and there will continue to be so in cata, obviously coordination type fights like LK will be harder on on 25m, but other fights where stacking is favorable (say sarth 3, yogg 0, ect....) 25m guilds have an edge as they generally have a much larger player pool.

Honestly I would have liked to see different items, but based on difficulty rather then number of people in the raid(IE 10/25n share loot tables, 10/25h share loot tables)

Either way I think its a solid change for wow, it won't shatter any truly hard core 25m guilds, it will just hurt bad 25m guilds, who have 10-15 people caring 10-15 people. Thus trolls aside, most of the people who are complaining here are the ones in those guilds, who are in the bottom 10-15 raiders in their guild, and will find themselves guildless in cata.

[rkma]

People running 25's should be running 25's because they have *wait for it* Twenty-Five competent players.

Not because 25's have a higher ratio of loot per person...

Yes, some basic logic will determine that every guild with 25 competent players also has 10 competent players. And since raid lockouts last more than one night, any guild with only 25 competent players will have less than 25 competent players on some nights. However, they will still have 10 competent players.

It stands to reason that if the payoff for 10 mans is intended to be equivalent or only marginally inferior to 25 man, then the better option will almost always be to run 10 mans with your competent players.

What's more, is this assumes that players are purely interested in loot. If they actually enjoy 10 man content, they no longer have the option of running both 25 and 10 man. They will have to choose one, and drop the other. Guess what that means?

[Odyssasthai]

Raiding in 10 mans = less likely the item will drop, but more likely you will win it.
Raiding in 25 mans = more likely the item will drop, but less likely you will win it.

No, your math is wrong. Even though you have more competition on rolls in 25-man, you have more rolls in an absolute sense. Also, most raids use some kind of DKP/Karma, which limits the folks who can roll.

[troxan]

This change will cause this:

1. 25 Raidguilds will vanish with few exceptions
2. PUGs will be standard
3. Raiders will run 10-mans with their best players (only some we-want-to-be-world-1st will do 25 to gear up a little faster) doing heroic modes much faster
4. WoW will lose many old-school and hardcore-players
5. WoW will get many more 100% casual 1-2 hours/day players

This could end the raiding style we know love/hate for 5 years - it will open raids to people who never raided (and those are still the majority) and bore the 6+hours/day players causing many of them to leave and play other MMOs. But for Blizzard it means more players, more money. They could care less about hardcore guild QQ if they get a legion of paying casuals in return.

PS: sorry for my bad english, not my native language.

"4. WoW will lose many old-school and hardcore-players
5. WoW will get many more 100% casual 1-2 hours/day players
They could care less about hardcore guild QQ if they get a legion of paying casuals in return."

So true.

[sneaky7]

For those who say this will "kill" 25-man: Why save something that you have to force people to do? If no one wants to do it, it deserves to die.

You can normally divide most players in two groups: those who want to play and those who want loot.
People that want to play, probably, can be divided into those who want 10 mans and those who want 25 mans (i believe more of them want 25s).
People that want loot, allways go for the easier way to get it (read - 10s).
And, most probably, there are more people who want loots rather than those who wants to play. And not everybody of those who want to play, actually wants 25s. But those who want, will still never get those 25s, since most other people prefer 10s and it will be way much harder to gather a 25-man group.

[muto]

Best idea by Blizzard so far

Why?

1. easier to find 10 skilled players
2. no one will bitch and complain about loot because if a certain item drops odds are you will win it
3. way easier to put raid times together because you only have 10 schedules to work with versus 25
4. way faster clears because there will be no lag (i lag in 25s)

Those are just 4 ideas i thought of right off the bat I'm sure there are tons more reasons why this is better.

oh ya this will also end the reign of the same guild constantly getting the realm firsts

[Odyssasthai]

I 100% prefer 25 mans over 10 mans. I avoid 10 mans like the plague. Not forced at all so it doesn't deserve to die. Making the game cater for incompetents, does however.

How does it "cater to incompetents" if it's the same difficulty level? Incompetent at what exactly--having 25 friends? lol

[TabascoEU]

In the WotLK content there have been heroic/hard modes favoring both, 10 or 25m, and there will continue to be so in cata, obviously coordination type fights like LK will be harder on on 25m, but other fights where stacking is favorable (say sarth 3, yogg 0, ect....) 25m guilds have an edge as they generally have a much larger player pool.

Honestly I would have liked to see different items, but based on difficulty rather then number of people in the raid(IE 10/25n share loot tables, 10/25h share loot tables)

Either way I think its a solid change for wow, it won't shatter any truly hard core 25m guilds, it will just hurt bad 25m guilds, who have 10-15 people caring 10-15 people. Thus trolls aside, most of the people who are complaining here are the ones in those guilds, who are in the bottom 10-15 raiders in their guild, and will find themselves guildless in cata.

100% of the memorable rewarding heart racing hard mode kills have always been 25 man ones, 10 man Hard modes have always been a joke in comparison.

[Tranquil]

The potential value of this change is outweighed by it's inevitable detriment to the WoW raiding community.

1. It will undoubtedly cause fractures in existing guilds.

2. It again removes a bar from the progression line, making it harder for hardcore progression guilds to prove their worth.

3. Undoubtedly the greatest issue is the fact that this further encourages the idiocy of "X fight is easier with 10, let's sit 15 and get the kill", as well as just huge issues with guild management in general.

I would support this structure much more if they changed 10 to 15 and left 25s to make the variable gap more comparable to eh we have a slightly smaller guild as opposed to the drastic difference in forced group comps that exists now.

[Prag]

Yes, some basic logic will determine that every guild with 25 competent players also has 10 competent players. And since raid lockouts last more than one night, any guild with only 25 competent players will have less than 25 competent players on some nights. However, they will still have 10 competent players.

It stands to reason that if the payoff for 10 mans is intended to be equivalent or only marginally inferior to 25 man, then the better option will almost always be to run 10 mans with your competent players.

What's more, is this assumes that players are purely interested in loot. If they actually enjoy 10 man content, they no longer have the option of running both 25 and 10 man. They will have to choose one, and drop the other. Guess what that means?

The payoff is in quality, not quantity. They've not provided an exact amount. I'd assume that the community isn't breaking new ground when they ask "Why run 25's is it's the same loot per person".

Basically, it sounds like you're confirming what I assume are their intentions:

Separate the 25-man Guilds from the 10-man + Baggage Guilds.

Again, why is this a bad thing?

[Mr. Smith]

One the one hand,I do prefer 10 man raiding as it feels a little more...eh,personal I guess,and gear being the same in 10 and 25 man will be pretty awesome for doing that.

But still,effectively shooting 25 mans in the foot seems kind of heavy-handed,at least leave the two versions on different lockouts IMO.

[Svn]

This is ridiculous. I don't know where to start.

[TabascoEU]

How does it "cater to incompetents" if it's the same difficulty level? Incompetent at what exactly--having 25 friends? lol

Perhaps you should take a broader look at the game, it is far too easy. Everyone, even chinese bots can get 245+ gear. The future 10 man "normal" will be designed as a loot piñata, as they have said repeatedly they want "all" to see content. And in 10 mans you have to undertune everything due to poorly geared whining saps. So the game will become easier. /yawn.

[jpicob]

I´m very upset for this change >.... this will probably destroy a lot of 25man guilds ´cause the top 10 players of the guilds will not waste time gearing up the lats 15... and lot of people that are in this kind of guilds doesnt have 10man groups... So Blizzard should change the raiding system as the TOC was, 4 lockouts for the 4 dificulty levels