Cataclysm Raid Progression Refinements

[Odyssasthai]

You can normally divide most players in two groups: those who want to play and those who want loot.
People that want to play, probably, can be divided into those who want 10 mans and those who want 25 mans (i believe more of them want 25s).
People that want loot, allways go for the easier way to get it (read - 10s).
And, most probably, there are more people who want loots rather than those who wants to play. And not everybody of those who want to play, actually wants 25s. But those who want, will still never get those 25s, since most other people prefer 10s and it will be way much harder to gather a 25-man group.

Actually, I disagree with you. I prefer to do 10-man because I generally don't like people; by this, I mean the larger the group, the more chance there's someone there that will annoy me. Also, Vent is so much noisier on 25-man. It's tiresome.

Also, I disagree a bit about 10-man being the easier route in all cases. Our guild had 2-3 10-mans as a precursor to our 25-man ToC/ICC runs. 2 of them failed miserably because they were bottom heavy with "rank-and-file" types. They are great 25-man players, but didn't have the correct skill set to thrive in 10-man.

[TabascoEU]

Like Sarth+3D, right? :

Intriguing how people try to sound like die-hard hard-core payers without having a single clue...

an isolated incident, however not due to being challenging or heart racing, just due to buff scaling, however

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=F0bKPY4scyQ

fights like that are ultimately jokes.

[Diurden]

If you enjoyed 10 mans for the sake of raiding, you wouldn't care about loot. As it stands, it sounds like you're just another loot whore who seeks gratification through shiny purples, not the content.

loot IS the game, don't pretend like you dont know it

[mrwingtipshoes]

Do people that post on MMO-C read anything? Ever?

Half these responses are kneejerk reactions or trolls.

"&#^%@ blizz you ruined my life!"
"No more 25 man raids!"
"No extraloot from 25 mans?!? wtf!"
"No better loot from 25 mans?! i want my epeen!"


Seriously, the completely lack of reading comprehension and level of ignorance is amazing.

[Ollakka]

This should be posted a million times. It's basic human nature.

This is not healthy for 25-man guilds. It probably won't break up Ensidia or any super-duper-hardcore guild, but the other 99% of 25-man raiding guilds will be hurt by this. At most, they may raid 25-man for hard mode, and that's about it.

In that case the guild was BROKEN to begin with.

[Frozen]

If this change between loot goes through, and is completely even ground, I may renew my subscription.

[rkma]

The 10+baggage Guilds are, like mine, doing Hard Mode in 10 and normal on 25.

The 25-man guilds are getting server/us/eu/world firsts.

So you're saying that the only options are "server first" or "10-man guild." Right?

That's gonna kill the majority of 25-man guilds, exactly like everyone has been saying.

[Devíne]

Well,

You cant stop change and blizzard will cater for where ever the majority of the current players want; as as most people want easy stuff then they will go down that path. However, my points if anyone actually cares are: -

1) If the same quality loot drops from 10's and 25's raids really what is the point of running a 25 person guild? There is little incentive tbh if there is synergie between loot & achievements; as currently there is a distinction between a 10 raiding guild and a 25 raiding guild through gear and achievements. If you look at the hassle and difficulties that guild leaders have in making sure that they have the right classes, motivated and players to form a sucessful 25 raid then why go through all that hassle if you can just be 10 friends online for 1 night a week to clear all content, get all loot and get all achievements?

What will likely happen with these changes is that there will be far fewer Larger guilds running and more smaller guilds runnign 10's; if this is what blizzard want then well i guess we cant stop that can we.

2) More loot will drop in 25's because there will be more people ofc so in 10's there might be 1 warlock, 1 mage and 1 priest and in 25's there might be 9 of thoes classes hence more loot so dont let this distract you.

3) The whole setup suggested is good except for the changes in gear quality, i thinks its just Blizzard wanting to Homoganise gear to the point that a priest will be wearing the same gear as a warlock and mage.

4) Gear inflation (itemlevel) is just a joke as Blizzard have caused this problem them selves. Give more choice of stats, different looks etc on gear as apposed to +10 on all stats all around. To say this fixes item inflation is just a lame excuse for reducing the items that need to be created.

Essentially, if yiou put in the effort to raid25 content thene there should be different achievements, better quality gear to reward the time and effort spent; pritty much as it is now.

Welcome to WoW Casual, the ultimate easy online game.

[evilgnomey]

Fail, it was 15 man

http://www.wowwiki.com/Blackrock_Spire

and i quote "Upper Blackrock Spire - Intended for 10 party members."

[Diurden]

people were omg end of the world whinge cry when they announced there would be 25 mans instead of 40 mans as well, and it worked out fine

[Ksmota]

people were omg end of the world whinge cry when they announced there would be 25 mans instead of 40 mans as well, and it worked out fine

Looking forward to 5 man and single person raids. :

[rkma]

In that case the guild was BROKEN to begin with.

My guild has been together for 4.5 years. We're also Horde first in progression. PLEASE don't try to tell me my guild is broken.

[blackhydra866]

Do people that post on MMO-C read anything? Ever?

Half these responses are kneejerk reactions or trolls.

"&#^%@ blizz you ruined my life!"
"No more 25 man raids!"
"No extraloot from 25 mans?!? wtf!"
"No better loot from 25 mans?! i want my epeen!"


Seriously, the completely lack of reading comprehension and level of ignorance is amazing.

I like the part where you bashed people about reading comprehension then proceed to make no input of your own. Amazing.

[Odyssasthai]

If you enjoyed 10 mans for the sake of raiding, you wouldn't care about loot. As it stands, it sounds like you're just another loot whore who seeks gratification through shiny purples, not the content.

If 25m players don't care about loot, why do they care what drops in 10-man? It goes both ways.

[Shamslam]

I duno how come you see 10man as a joke. The current loot is decent for the amount of time you spend setting the raids together and leading it.

If 10 mans are tuned pretty much around the 10 strict guilds now, then I'll be happy. None of them (according to guildox) have downed H LK10. Yea, this is the perfect view to look at it from. Everyone else went into ICC10 with ICC25 gear and roflstomped it. 10 strict guilds I'm guessing find H ICC10 pretty difficult.

I don't think it will be as hard to balance 10 and 25 out. We're not all lootwhores. I don't even raid that much. I see this for what it is. No more retarded 4 raids a week in the same instance, no more incredibly large gear inflation, and hopefully there is less bitching from both sides(10/25 raiders).

[evilgnomey]

Looking forward to 5 man and single person raids. :

soloing ZG is pretty fun i don't see why it couldn't work :P

[Prag]

In that case the guild was BROKEN to begin with.

This is such a key point.

This will break Guilds who are not willing to actually progress and are afraid of wiping repeatedly to new content.

This will do nothing to Guilds that have 25 people willing to put in 100% and do what is necessary to down the boss.

The fact that they're considering letting you bounce between 10 and 25 on the fly is a straight BUFF to the Guilds mentioned first. Sick of watching that stupid fucking Warrior Cleave the Raging Spirit before the Tank has aggro, wiping the Melee Group? DROP IT TO 10 BRO AND DOWN THE BOSS.

Casual guilds get buffed.

Strong 25-man guilds stay the same.

Hardcore 10-guilds emerge.

[hudges]

Lets start with i dont know if i like it or not.
many concern it will be the end of 25 man its a strong possibilty, and ill back ill back it up with some numbers -
*as for number of loot items from what we know till now boss loot table is avrage 12 for for 10 man and 15 for 25
lets presume the loot table will be like 25 boss now, so 15 items per boss, now for 10 man drop of 2 items seems most probable, for 25 not to make loot feel too repatative then needs to be below half so 6-7 items would fit the bill. now for a diffrent data called progress no matter how hard blizz will try 10 man will always will be easier then 25 progress wise, for the simple fact of orgnization, e.g. getting the players getting them to follow strat to the letter and so on, statiscly 25 man are more proun to do mistakes, which makes 25 man progress way slower, so start of a new raid tier it will take aat least twice as long for 25 man to be able to clear it in that time 10 man will be clearing it on a weekly basis, loot wise 10 man will get less potentialy but in fact will get more cause of the faster progress, and more weeks to come 25 man will benfit less and less from the bosses they have on farm due to overlaps, while 10 man will have bigger loot table from clearing all the bosses.
to sum it up loot numbers wont do to keep 25 man going.

[Tetrarchy]

loot IS the game, don't pretend like you dont know it

well its at least part of the game. It quickly became kinda lame to see the 25man pugs in naxx with their 213 compared to our 200. I guess you can call me whatever you want, but since wow is kind of a game about achieving things and progression, if you're a whole tier behind, you eventually feel like you're losing.

just my $.02 tho

[Xelaeno]

Farm-able Legendary in 10 man content? Yes please. Will take longer but who cares? ;D