Cataclysm Raid Progression Refinements

[Arandmoor]

You are absolutely right.

I think I am most worried about the balance between 10 and 25. I am just having a hard time seeing how this can be done with out removing some of the mechanics that are currently being utilized. This has been said a number of times already but I will say it again, the size of the room and the space that you are alloted is a HUGE difference between 10m and 25m ICC. Unless the rooms and platforms will be smaller in comparison to the number of people, I just can't see this working out well. Either 25m will become to easy or 10m will be too hard or they just won't be that close in terms of difficulty.

It's possible to balance so long as you take into account the difference in difficulty area between the formats.

In tens you are resource limited.
In 25s you are logistically limited.

If they differ the mechanics from 10 to 25 to take these into account then balance is possible.

Take Saurfang for example: in 25's you have no room to maneuver. This makes the blood novas the mechanic to focus on for 25's if you want to make life difficult. In tens however, spreading out for blood nova is trivial leaving the blood beast management as the mechanic that can be tuned to most easily make life difficult.

So how do we do this then?

25: Blood Boil comes at regular intervals allowing "spread out" phases to be timed by your boss mod. Additionally, targets for blood boil will be selected by a slightly different set of AI rules from tens and DBS will favor the targets his blood beasts are aggroed to if any are still alive. Because of the inherent danger the blood beasts represent, this means that his blood boil target will most usually be a moving target, increasing the likely number of targets hit by any one blood boil unless the raid is reaction to the beasts' present positions and the positions of their kiters. The difficulty becomes the logistics of the situation. You have to manage where everyone is. Do that and the fight becomes trivial/farm-able assuming enough DPS to kill the boss before marks become a problem.

10: Blood Boil comes at random intervals and is assumed to be mostly avoided because spreading out is trivial with 15 less people. Targeting is completely random except for the caveat that the target is not in melee range. The difficulty that gets pumped here is the part a 10-man raid will have problems with: The blood beasts. Each one now has a more HP for the DPS capacity of the raid, and a mechanic to test your raid's situational awareness: Blood Beasts will drop threat if they have been unable to attack their current aggro target for at least Z seconds (where Z = X + Y; X is a constant and Y is a random integer within reason) and automatically generate a certain level of threat on a random target in the raid favoring targets in melee range and targeting any non-tank if the raid is actually doing its job.

The tactics for each format remain the same: DPS the boss when no blood beasts are up and stay spread out. When blood beasts spawn kite and kill them before going back to the boss. 10's need to stay spread out at all times and pay attention to who has aggro from what while, depending on a timer, a 25-man raid can group up as needed to keep their distance from specific people without having their numbers necessarily be the thing that hurts them unless they screw up.

And all of this is assuming you don't consider increasing the size of the blood boils on 10 and decreasing them on 25 to be a valid option. I think the only reason we haven't seen the devs do something like that already is because they were trying to balance the encounters based on gear ilvl through boss/add HP totals and damage out. With both formats dropping the same gear, they will have to change how they balance encounters. It wouldn't surprise me to see them try a number of different balancing techniques over the course of Cataclysm to see what they feel works best.

I have also seen several people that are most interested in 10m achievements and server first titles being taken away by 25m guilds that over gear. With that being said, why not just go with the following approach. Use a similar model to what was used to the Tribute to Dedicated Insanity achievement from the Crusader Coliseum.

Basically do not allow anyone with any 25 man gear equipped to be able to do the 10m achievements. Better yet, you can't zone in unless you are under the gear score limit for the 10m version of the content.

Seems like that still lets both sides flex their epeens while at the same time not murdering 25m raiding. It also sets up 10m with it's own progression path a bit better. Not to mention you could also keep the raid lockouts separate this way giving hard core players more to do.

Dropping the same gear in each format is alleviating a number of different problems. It's not to screw 25 man raiders over.

Also, while they could simply limit 10's to people with the appropriate gear level, that would be an artificial restriction that would do nothing but piss people off. How do you tell people that they can't go into a 10m because the gear they got from running the exact same content on 25 is invalid this week because somebody couldn't make it this week? How do you handle people who like running both that they now have to maintain two different sets of gear per spec?

Far easier to just have everything drop the same gear. It solves so many problems while cutting their workload by quite a bit on the development side.

[asumiro]

This is easily blizzards worst idea yet...all of the 10man players are qqing because 25 players are qqing that, although most wont admit it, they wont be be able to 'show off' anymore. well 25 man players getting 11/12 heroic kills in ICC deserve to be looked up to a bit, that does take a lot of work. I am in a 25 heroic guild and it took me a lot of time, having to read up and practice to perfect my class takes time and i have the time to spare for it so why cant i benefit more from that then someone who just 'casually' plays and most likely doesnt know as much about the game or their class. No matter what blizzard may say 25man will always be harder than 10man and once an instance is out for 1-2months, it wont matter how many peices of gear dropped everybody will have most of the loot they wanted whether they raid 10 or 25.

[Sargerus]

c'mon guys! lets beat Celestial steed thread, only 700 posts to go ;D

[Smoopie]

Almost everyone I talk to is looking for a reason to keep up the hassle of 25s..so far nothing
It is harder to manage, or change raids at the drop of a dime. Pushing harder content and staying past "raid times" will be easier if you put together a group you know will stay an extra 30 mins after a really good attempt or two

So far I really see no reason to put up with the extra non game BS that running a 25 man involves

[Suggs]

Ahh what excellent changes cheers blizz for a few things including the comical comments in this thread thanks to your blue posts.
What i want to say is pointed at all the mongo cunts posting shit as if they know better ;
25 man raids will be dead = how the fuck do you know ? you some sort of fortune teller? no so wait and see , im sure blizz have thought about this and im sure more things are to come.
guilds will die = maybe they will maybe they wont, who gives a fuck, they will have to adapt to whatever changes are made and fight on just like the last few expansions, make new guilds or quit.
To all those complaining that they wont have anything else to do for the rest of the week after they get locked out of 1 raid...well u know what im gonna say yes? Level alts, gear up alts , roll the new class and level that or go out and get a fucking life or does that scare you too much knowing that you didnt have one to begin with....dam social missfits.
One last note to people complaining about making the game easier and better for casual gamers ...seriously at what point did blizzard create this game for JUST so call hardcore raiders?? (im talking to the bell end elitists that demand a gs of 5.5k just to do a 10 man voa ) stop being a sellfish Gear Score prick ...its not all about you, never was and never will be.
SO ye keep it coming blizz , these expansions get better and better keep up the good work and like Ronald McDonald would say on crack 'Im Fucking Loving It!!!'

[Deleted]

c'mon guys! lets beat Celestial steed thread, only 700 posts to go ;D

[Deleted]

Ahh what excellent changes cheers blizz for a few things including the comical comments in this thread thanks to your blue posts.
What i want to say is pointed at all the mongo cunts posting shit as if they know better ;
25 man raids will be dead = how the fuck do you know ? you some sort of fortune teller? no so wait and see , im sure blizz have thought about this and im sure more things are to come.
guilds will die = maybe they will maybe they wont, who gives a fuck, they will have to adapt to whatever changes are made and fight on just like the last few expansions, make new guilds or quit.
To all those complaining that they wont have anything else to do for the rest of the week after they get locked out of 1 raid...well u know what im gonna say yes? Level alts, gear up alts , roll the new class and level that or go out and get a fucking life or does that scare you too much knowing that you didnt have one to begin with....dam social missfits.
One last note to people complaining about making the game easier and better for casual gamers ...seriously at what point did blizzard create this game for JUST so call hardcore raiders?? (im talking to the bell end elitists that demand a gs of 5.5k just to do a 10 man voa ) stop being a sellfish Gear Score prick ...its not all about you, never was and never will be.
SO ye keep it coming blizz , these expansions get better and better keep up the good work and like Ronald McDonald would say on crack 'Im Fucking Loving It!!!'

This post is so full of fail...unbelieveable.

[Suggs]

This post is so full of fail...unbelieveable.

ahh u must be one of these mongo gs bell ends i talk about , glad you took time to read it .

[Balbaroy]

Almost 2k posts Well I'll put my 2 cents in here by affirming that nobody is going to be running 25 mans under this circumstance. I don't care how big your guild is, maybe 1% of people currently running 25s are going to continue doing so. There's just no reason to put the extra effort in. I know there will be more items dropped in 25, but everyone will just continue running 10 mans every week to get them. Also, some people tend to think that this is a good thing because it will increase the difficulty of the 10 man versions. Let me assure you that future dungeons are going to be just as easy as ICC is right now. They won't be harder and you know it. We're talking about Blizzard here. I don't care about raiding at all, I'm casual as hell, and even I think this is a bad idea. Where is the difficulty for pvers going to come from? Where's the motivation? gonna be interesting.

[Venomspit]

I still concider BC the best "version" of WoW so far. There were raids for casuals and raids for ppl who were willing and able to but more time and effort to the game. And thats the way I think every x-pack should be. Yes I know that Blizz wants more ppl to see the raids that they have made cos they are afraid that the casuals and baddies will leave other wise. Well I remember loads of casuals and baddies from the time of BC asking "Where did you get this and that" and they never left even tho they could not optain that gear....Funny.

[Fuzzbutt]

I still concider BC the best "version" of WoW so far. There were raids for casuals and raids for ppl who were willing and able to but more time and effort to the game. And thats the way I think every x-pack should be. Yes I know that Blizz wants more ppl to see the raids that they have made cos they are afraid that the casuals and baddies will leave other wise. Well I remember loads of casuals and baddies from the time of BC asking "Where did you get this and that" and they never left even tho they could not optain that gear....Funny.

I think what most of the people who are qqing in this thread about casuals are forgetting is that in Vanilla or BC, they'd still be in MC or Kara.

You're only in ICC and only having this argument because Blizzard decided to change their business model to bring in more players. Yes, you're being allowed to participate in ICC. They're letting "casuals" see the content, but by the standards of Vanilla and BC, 99% of the people QQing in this thread would still be casuals in casual guilds.

I'm sorry, but just because you can down bosses with a 15% buff after having the previous tier of gear being showered upon you in the truest loot pinata form ever doesn't make you leet.

TLDR: If you haven't downed HM LK 25 by now, you are a casual baddy. That's the new model. You're being allowed to see content that you'd otherwise have to grind for months to get to, and maybe you should get used to it. After all, you're the one that's being catered to.

[Rootofalleli]

You can clear 11/12 ICC 25 HMs in 3-3.5 hours (even faster if you chain pull) right now. Any casual who doesn't have 3-4 hours to spare has no business playing this game. I think it's been mentioned in this thread and I've seen it before, but the average WoW player logs something like 20 hours a week in game. Even if that number is wrong and the actual number is half of that, that's still more than enough time to clear both 10 and 25 ICC. Casual my ass. :

Dude, you're just out of touch with the typical person who plays this game. How on earth are people we call "casual" able to chain-pull hard mode 25m IC? I posted earlier that about 1.2% of people are in hard mode 25m IC. I'm pretty sure "casuals" are somewhere in the other other 98.8% of players, not in the elite.

[Venomspit]

I think what most of the people who are qqing in this thread about casuals are forgetting is that in Vanilla or BC, they'd still be in MC or Kara.

You're only in ICC and only having this argument because Blizzard decided to change their business model to bring in more players. Yes, you're being allowed to participate in ICC. They're letting "casuals" see the content, but by the standards of Vanilla and BC, 99% of the people QQing in this thread would still be casuals in casual guilds.

I'm sorry, but just because you can down bosses with a 15% buff after having the previous tier of gear being showered upon you in the truest loot pinata form ever doesn't make you leet.

TLDR: If you haven't downed HM LK 25 by now, you are a casual baddy. That's the new model. You're being allowed to see content that you'd otherwise have to grind for months to get to, and maybe you should get used to it. After all, you're the one that's being catered to.

Ye well if all of that was aimed at me you should know that in BC id be in sunwell not in kara,sorry. And what comes to ICC. Yes I havent killed LK cos I dont have as much time to play this game as I used to. Still im not crying that I should get there cos I pay as much as those who have the time.

[fhenrer]

"
Ahh what excellent changes cheers blizz for a few things including the comical comments in this thread thanks to your blue posts.
What i want to say is pointed at all the mongo cunts posting shit as if they know better ;
25 man raids will be dead = how the fuck do you know ? you some sort of fortune teller? no so wait and see , im sure blizz have thought about this and im sure more things are to come.
guilds will die = maybe they will maybe they wont, who gives a fuck, they will have to adapt to whatever changes are made and fight on just like the last few expansions, make new guilds or quit.
To all those complaining that they wont have anything else to do for the rest of the week after they get locked out of 1 raid...well u know what im gonna say yes? Level alts, gear up alts , roll the new class and level that or go out and get a fucking life or does that scare you too much knowing that you didnt have one to begin with....dam social missfits.
One last note to people complaining about making the game easier and better for casual gamers ...seriously at what point did blizzard create this game for JUST so call hardcore raiders?? (im talking to the bell end elitists that demand a gs of 5.5k just to do a 10 man voa ) stop being a sellfish Gear Score prick ...its not all about you, never was and never will be.
SO ye keep it coming blizz , these expansions get better and better keep up the good work and like Ronald McDonald would say on crack 'Im Fucking Loving It!!!'
"



WHO REMEMBERS SUNWELL...

[shamwoow]

have to say that i am pretty excited for cataclysm. i am a casual player i prefer raiding over anything else in the game and i am really happy about the expansion. i also heard that the game is going back into original WoW or vanilla as my friends call it. i just wanted to know if anyone agrees with that.

[Ksmota]

Dude, you're just out of touch with the typical person who plays this game. How on earth are people we call "casual" able to chain-pull hard mode 25m IC? I posted earlier that about 1.2% of people are in hard mode 25m IC. I'm pretty sure "casuals" are somewhere in the other other 98.8% of players, not in the elite.

My point was that if guilds are capable of clearing 11/12 HMs in 3 hours, then you should be able to faceroll your way through normal modes in the same time or less. And there are "casual" raiding guilds that raid 2 nights a week and have cleared 10-11/12 HMs at this point, so what's your excuse?

Not having enough time to raid is just an excuse for people who want everything handed to them on a silver platter. You can clear both ICC 10 and 25 in less than 5 hours now. If you can't find 5 hours a week to play this game, then why are you playing it? Sorry, but that excuse just doesn't cut it anymore. People who can't find more than 1-2 hours a week to raid have no business raiding.

Now I'm guessing you'll probably cry along the lines of, "I pay $15/month so I have the right to see HARD MODE content" when, in reality, that content was designed for the serious raider. Not the 1 hour a week casual superstar. Normal mode is their kingdom.

And the typical person plays this game more than your average casual apologist thinks.

[mwaterson]

What a pointless pointless change.

This proves the point that WoW is sincerely 'the' entry level MMO.

Gearing up in WOW is far far to easy to the point you can train a monkey to do it for you.

And now Blizzard as 'nerfing' the game to the point of a waste of money.....

Everyone pay to play, and if like now most people have done all the raids come the weekend, this includes 10 and 25 man versions. So what are people going to do in the meantime, put on a show on the roof of Org Bank???

If this is the way cata is going I can see a LOT of people leaving WoW and turning to Aion or something like that.

[fxrs]

What a pointless pointless change.

This proves the point that WoW is sincerely 'the' entry level MMO.

Gearing up in WOW is far far to easy to the point you can train a monkey to do it for you.

And now Blizzard as 'nerfing' the game to the point of a waste of money.....

Everyone pay to play, and if like now most people have done all the raids come the weekend, this includes 10 and 25 man versions. So what are people going to do in the meantime, put on a show on the roof of Org Bank???

We'll see. You may be right though, the game is getting a bit too easy and I'm a casual raider at best.

If this is the way cata is going I can see a LOT of people leaving WoW and turning to Aion or something like that.

[Caradinist]

What a pointless pointless change.

This proves the point that WoW is sincerely 'the' entry level MMO.

Gearing up in WOW is far far to easy to the point you can train a monkey to do it for you.

And now Blizzard as 'nerfing' the game to the point of a waste of money.....

Everyone pay to play, and if like now most people have done all the raids come the weekend, this includes 10 and 25 man versions. So what are people going to do in the meantime, put on a show on the roof of Org Bank???

If this is the way cata is going I can see a LOT of people leaving WoW and turning to Aion or something like that.

Let's wait until we have ALL the information, right? same as all the class previews, everyone was basing it to be overpowered or underpowered according to Wotlk standards.

[Samurai]

I can see why Blizzard is doing this, to cater for the 85%+ of the wow population that is casual. But if you dont raid you dont need the latest and newest and best shinies, people who spend all day sitting in dala and run 1-2 heroics a day and complain they never get to do anything when they dont actually try are taking over wow and its getting terrible.

If these changes go live Blizzard will lose many of the more serious players, which i suppose is good, cause the next Expansion after Cata is going to be World of Warcraft: Barbie Adventure Island