Cataclysm Raid Progression Refinements

[Seraphinea]

I absoluty hate the idea.

I think for my guild (and tbh alot of guilds will feel the same about it) it will ruin alot of the social aspect of the game. 25's are for alot of guilds just for the fun and not even for the loot. Missing out on the fun on vent ect. That would be such a shame. Since well, same loot, 15 less people to screw up. Easy choice.

[grdja]

100% of raiding guilds? Oh dear no, every paying subscriber must be able to kill Arthas (Shadwomourne not included). They pay the same as you and deserve to access the content.

[kilgreth]

100% of raiding guilds? Oh dear no, every paying subscriber must be able to kill Arthas (Shadwomourne not included). They pay the same as you and deserve to access the content.

Yeah, honestly I really think there should just be a movie mode where people can just watch the content and mail them epics when the movie is over. Maybe even a God mode so some people can feel good about themselves.

I certainly say all this in jest, however a use to make the point that at some point a line needs to be drawn. Personally, I think raiding is as closed to being balanced right now (in terms of accessibility) then it ever has. Basically, more people are seeing the content then ever before. I don't see the need for a change.

[sabrinakyle]

I am really unhappy that the WotLK heroics are too easy, unlike TBC heroics were. For me in TBC was like: I get home from work, I enter the daily heroic, I strugle to get a group, try to get best ppl possible for it, and when I hardly finished it I went for evening raid.
I was actualy having something fun to do out of raid times.
Ofc when it was about grinding was not fun at all, and I was trying to avoid grinding for gold as much as possible.

Now the random dungeon is just a tool used by Blizz to bring more players into raiding.
Blizz, will you ever consider to make the heroics have different levels of difficulty and drop gear/badges/gold based on the ilevel required to do that difficulty mode? I am really bored to have nothing to raid out of raiding times.. I really loved the heroics.
And now you take away from us also the 10 ppl version of the dungeons..
Lucky that I ahve an alt, though.

I will be honest with you the heroics of BC really were not tuned properly. Did you ever remember trying to do those heroics without some kara loot? It wasn't fun your tank sometimes got gibbed as if he were fighting a real boss in a raid.

Yes the heroics of today are a laughing stock and are WAY undertuned as is most of the content. There is a happy median I am sure but blizzard has failed to reach it.

I was able to heal pit of saran "heroic" in half blues on my pvp geared druid..... So yes "heroics" of today are a joke. But does anyone remember shattered halls heroic? That place was NOT fun. Or sethek halls for that matter? If you were cloth and pulled agro you were 1 shotted period end of story. Today you can "almost" tank a few blows before you die.

[sabrinakyle]

We did 10 man S3D first because it was easier for us to do so, also server first, so don't think it was done late or anything. Why was it easier. Because it was a 10man, and it is always easier to get 10 great players all playing well during a fight than to do the same with 25.

To be fair not all the expansion had easier 10 man modes. I am sorry but I would say the horseman and sapphiron in 10 man modes were WAY harder than 25 man modes.

I think they learned something after Naxx 10 man that had some issues to say the least. Now TOC 10 man... that place was a horrid joke. When 2 resto druid healers can heal the whole place you know something is wrong. Especially when one of them my alt was doing it in pvp gear..

[Auroya]

Oh spacing wont be a problem because at the entrance of every 25 man instance you will meet
blitzbolt fizzlebang master world enlarger he will enlarge the 10 man world for you making the world bigger for you^^
and if you clear the content he will give you a special unique pet lets say a parrot with a really big hat and it will be a really big hat on top of the head of the parrot^^

so all hail the the world enlarging.
will offcourse not stack with the gnomish world enlarger^^

[Asmin]

considering to nerdrage at blizzard srsly....if this 10 man / casual stuff gets throught im so out of here :X 25 death = R.I.P real WoW and totally welcome to Casualcraft

[Fuzzbutt]

The scaling buff was put in so that people like you can eventually clear it. Nowhere has Blizzard said that every guild should have killed Arthas by now. There is nothing saying "100% of raiding guilds should have killed Arthas at this point in time". That isn't the case. Cata is still months out and the buff is still scaling to eventually help you get a kill. And if you're 7/12 in ICC, then raiding is very accessible for you. You're raiding. How is it not accessible when you're in there every week clearing more than 50% of the instance?

What point are you trying to make because you're surely not arguing about inaccessibility while admitting that you clear 50%+ of ICC 25 every week. What it seems like you're complaining about is the difficulty of the encounters. So what is it? Do you think you should able to clear every boss the first week they're released because that's an entirely different argument. And let's say that is your argument (which I'm willing to bet it is), how is Cataclysm going to change that? Where did Blizzard say that they're going to make every boss killable by everyone as soon as the instance is released? You're complaining about people making mistakes as if Blizzard can fix that. It seems that you want bosses to be easier across the board so that you can kill them when everyone else does, regardless of how much time or effort you put in. That will NEVER be the case.

It's amazing how many people are arguing that raiding is inaccessible when their argument revolves around their inability to clear the entire instance and how they want BiS loot, both of which have nothing to do with accessibility. :

I don't think he's said anything about everyone getting BiS loot. BiS loot is in hard modes. Pugs are incapable of downing most bosses past Saurfang in a timely manner, with the possible exception of Rotface. That's true of both 10 and 25 man modes. Pugs don't down LK and to argue otherwise is completely stupid.

Also, this isn't week one. We're on our third monthly buff and the first "wing" of the upper spire was made available about 4 months ago. People should be downing LK by now. 5 months after Naxx, Uld was out. 4 months after Uld, ToC was out. 4 months after ToC was out, ICC came out. So in perspective, people should be well into clearing through ICC normal. Although the top 10% or so of guilds are doing that, the average guild is not. Maybe 10 guilds on my server has and there are dozens of raiding guilds on my server.

I think your argument that casuals are facerolling content is just silly. You might be, but I doubt you're that far into ICC. If you are, you're using the buff and that makes you a casual bad.

Keep derpa derping your way to epics, just like the other "casuals" and "bads."

[Moke]

The point is people on here are saying in genral, and ofc not every one that 10 man raids can not be hard, my example demonstrates this is not the case, a further example would be 10 man 3 drakes how many nighfall titles did u see beefore u could just zerg it

Rest

I guess you missed the point where blizzard goes casual style. Do you really think 10m raids will be hard at all? Perhaps the heroic modes, but think again their goal is to have as many people see the content (apparently on it's hardest version too).

[Ksmota]

I don't think he's said anything about everyone getting BiS loot. BiS loot is in hard modes. Pugs are incapable of downing most bosses past Saurfang in a timely manner, with the possible exception of Rotface. That's true of both 10 and 25 man modes. Pugs don't down LK and to argue otherwise is completely stupid.

Also, this isn't week one. We're on our third monthly buff and the first "wing" of the upper spire was made available about 4 months ago. People should be downing LK by now. 5 months after Naxx, Uld was out. 4 months after Uld, ToC was out. 4 months after ToC was out, ICC came out. So in perspective, people should be well into clearing through ICC normal. Although the top 10% or so of guilds are doing that, the average guild is not. Maybe 10 guilds on my server has and there are dozens of raiding guilds on my server.

I think your argument that casuals are facerolling content is just silly. You might be, but I doubt you're that far into ICC. If you are, you're using the buff and that makes you a casual bad.

Keep derpa derping your way to epics, just like the other "casuals" and "bads."

I cleared 11/12 HMs in both 10 and 25 quite a while ago. Not that my progression has anything to do with my argument. I'm guessing that you're a 9/12 normal mode guy that thinks he's entitled to an Arthas kill at this very moment because you pay your $15 every month.

There are multiple servers with pugs clearing 10+ ICC 25 normal modes and pugs clearing 12/12 10 normal. Maybe not your server, but that doesn't mean that no pugs are capable of clearing past 4/12. But can you tell me where Blizzard said that everyone should have killed Arthas by now? The scaling buff is there to ensure that you eventually kill Arthas. There's nothing that says you should be able to kill him at 10%. Why would the buff scale to 30% if everyone was capable of killing him at 10%?

Fact of the matter is that nowhere does it say that Arthas should be dead by now. That's your opinion but in the end, it's just that, an opinion. ICC is supposed to last until Cata is released and that's months away. There is no way that 100% of raiders should have Arthas dead at this point as Blizzard wouldn't build their raids to do that as they would lose massive subscription numbers from people quitting in the run up to Cata. Content is gradually defeated, with the best doing it first and then so and so down to the worst of the worst. There has never been a killing of a boss by everyone on the server at once.

Have fun derpa derping your way to epics with your scrub guildies. Cata won't change your skill level. You'll still be stuck banging your head against the same encounter and that is exactly why this change is pointless and unneeded. Raiding can't possibly get anymore accessible than it already is.

It's funny how the people advocating this change think that this change will let them clear all the content. Why would it be any different than it is now? If you can't clear 10 man Arthas now, you won't be clearing his equivalent in Cata. Who am I kidding? Blizzard's way of making 10/25 the same difficulty will be by making both faceroll easy. :

[skaarrj]

1). The change to make 25 and 10 lockouts the same is fantastic. Because right now i feel its mandatory for myself to do both raids so i can maximize my badge output. Now I can really just focus on one.

2). It's about time the loot in 25 and 10 was the same loot. I never felt it was right to have the better loot simply because it took more people to accomplish the goal. More doesnt mean harder, or takes more skill. It just simply means more players. There's been several examples of raids where 10 mans were harder than 25 mans. There's also the fact that there is less room for error in a 10 man raid than a 25.

Tuning 10's and 25's to be near enough the same difficulty is a great step. I hated 40 man raids back in the day, and i hate 25 mans now. 10 mans are perfect.

3). Im glad blizzard is putting their focus on players who don't sit down roughly 8 hours a day and play this game.

[Ksmota]

1). The change to make 25 and 10 lockouts the same is fantastic. Because right now i feel its mandatory for myself to do both raids so i can maximize my badge output. Now I can really just focus on one.

2). It's about time the loot in 25 and 10 was the same loot. I never felt it was right to have the better loot simply because it took more people to accomplish the goal. More doesnt mean harder, or takes more skill. It just simply means more players. There's been several examples of raids where 10 mans were harder than 25 mans. There's also the fact that there is less room for error in a 10 man raid than a 25.

Tuning 10's and 25's to be near enough the same difficulty is a great step. I hated 40 man raids back in the day, and i hate 25 mans now. 10 mans are perfect.

3). Im glad blizzard is putting their focus on players who don't sit down roughly 8 hours a day and play this game.

1. It was never mandatory to raid both. You may have felt it necessary to raid both but that has never been the case.

2. The only encounter that was harder on 10 than 25 was OS10+3D and that had everything to do with the required group composition early on, not the encounter itself. 25s get the better loot because they are harder. This is a fact. Blizzard has even admitted this.

3. The average player plays this game between 10-20 hours a week. You can clear both ICC 10 and 25 in 5-6 hours at this point. If you raid only one and can't devote 3-5 hours of your week to raiding, then you shouldn't be raiding. There are 168 hours in a week. 5 hours raiding would be 3% of your week. Not much to ask considering you probably spend more time watching TV. :

[Baever]

Looked promising until it said ten mans would drop the same loot as twenty-fives.

l2play Blizzard.

[skaarrj]

1. It was never mandatory to raid both. You may have felt it necessary to raid both but that has never been the case.

Feeling mandatory is pretty much the same thing. Twisting words wont help support your point. Maximum badge output requirements is to do 10 and 25, heroic daily and the weekly. It will be nice to remove one extra raid. That's 4 hours of time freed up.

2. The only encounter that was harder on 10 than 25 was OS10+3D and that had everything to do with the required group composition early on, not the encounter itself. 25s get the better loot because they are harder. This is a fact. Blizzard has even admitted this.

While i respect your opinion i feel differently about other raids.

3. The average player plays this game between 10-20 hours a week. You can clear both ICC 10 and 25 in 5-6 hours at this point. If you raid only one and can't devote 3-5 hours of your week to raiding, then you shouldn't be raiding. There are 168 hours in a week. 5 hours raiding would be 3% of your week. Not much to ask considering you probably spend more time watching TV. :

While I respect your opinion I feel differently about this.

[Ghostyamine]

blizz you fail. all my opinions have been stated by others

[eigen]

I think its a good change. Blizzard is heading in the right direction.

[Axelhander]

blizz you fail. all my opinions have been stated by others

And those opinions hold no real weight, and are based on no real hard evidence.

[Mcpownage]

100% of raiding guilds? Oh dear no, every paying subscriber must be able to kill Arthas (Shadwomourne not included). They pay the same as you and deserve to access the content.

75% of statistics are made up

[Fuzzbutt]

I cleared 11/12 HMs in both 10 and 25 quite a while ago. Not that my progression has anything to do with my argument. I'm guessing that you're a 9/12 normal mode guy that thinks he's entitled to an Arthas kill at this very moment because you pay your $15 every month.

There are multiple servers with pugs clearing 10+ ICC 25 normal modes and pugs clearing 12/12 10 normal. Maybe not your server, but that doesn't mean that no pugs are capable of clearing past 4/12. But can you tell me where Blizzard said that everyone should have killed Arthas by now? The scaling buff is there to ensure that you eventually kill Arthas. There's nothing that says you should be able to kill him at 10%. Why would the buff scale to 30% if everyone was capable of killing him at 10%?

Fact of the matter is that nowhere does it say that Arthas should be dead by now. That's your opinion but in the end, it's just that, an opinion. ICC is supposed to last until Cata is released and that's months away. There is no way that 100% of raiders should have Arthas dead at this point as Blizzard wouldn't build their raids to do that as they would lose massive subscription numbers from people quitting in the run up to Cata. Content is gradually defeated, with the best doing it first and then so and so down to the worst of the worst. There has never been a killing of a boss by everyone on the server at once.

Have fun derpa derping your way to epics with your scrub guildies. Cata won't change your skill level. You'll still be stuck banging your head against the same encounter and that is exactly why this change is pointless and unneeded. Raiding can't possibly get anymore accessible than it already is.

It's funny how the people advocating this change think that this change will let them clear all the content. Why would it be any different than it is now? If you can't clear 10 man Arthas now, you won't be clearing his equivalent in Cata. Who am I kidding? Blizzard's way of making 10/25 the same difficulty will be by making both faceroll easy. :

Before this thread, I've never heard of a pug clearing ICC 10 or 25 12/12. That is extremely unlikely because of the coordination, skill, gear, and luck that it takes even on normal modes. Saying that pugs are facerolling through LK on normal is just silly. Just because there's one pug somewhere that has done it with a 15% buff doesn't mean that's normal. It's far more likely that the "pug" you're talking about is a guild run with one or two extra people thrown in or it's an alt run from a skilled guild.

I'm also not saying that anyone is entitled to a kill or phat loots without putting in time and effort. I AM saying people are used to moving onto new content every four months (like they have throughout Wrath) and that is why people are getting antsy. Not EVERYONE should be downing him, but above average 10 man guilds shouldn't be cockblocked by Sindragosa for 3 weeks in a row with a 10% raid buff. That encounter was overtuned for 10 man.

ICC isn't going to last to Cata. Ruby Sanctum was already announced and there's likely to be another small-scale raid before the end if Cata isn't launching in the next 6 months (which it isn't). Currently, the end content of 10 mans have to be tuned for people in 25 man gear. The change will make it so everything is tuned for the same gear and everyone will have the same ilvl gear.

And you're right, cata won't change much. The bads will still get welfares and you'll still be carried by your leet guildies while you're derpa derping around in the baddy welfares.

[Krookbond]

I am willing to bet larger guilds will be PVP guilds. And
40 man's Altreac Valley(AV) Rated BG is where all the actions will be.
Bring on the Rated Battlegrounds.