Love or hate the new PvE Raid change?

[Kronoz]

its just plain awsome

[Belial-sama]

From a 10man POV, what i like the most is shared lockouts.
They can keep the current difference in ilvl between 10 and 25 tbh.

From the reactions to this I can only come to conclusions that most of the 25man lovers love it only for it's loot, which is really sad.
And to all the "it's easier to get 9 people rofl" retards, when was the last time you checked how many applications 10man guilds get?

[Gron]

Where can I jump on the QQ bandwagon?

Everyone worrying about 25's becoming obsolete, think why that is.

If 10 & 25's are the same difficulty and have the same rewards, and people would rather do 10's then let them.

People shouldn't feel like they HAVE to do 25's. If they want to then good, if not they shouldn't be forced to do them.

I am not sure Blizzard knows what they are talking about. Imagine Kologarn - try to spread out in the room with limited space. 10 mans its easy, eye laser beams will not hit you. 25 man its hard - people are crammed up due to same raid layout.

Same on Lich King 25. Its loads easier with 10 people avoiding the defiles, than 25 standing and extending one.
Oopps... someone DC'd... which raid group has a larger chance of DC's, ruining your raid?

[Jezpalulaj]

First, just to clarify for the people who have been agonizing over this:
If 10 man raids drop 2 items per boss, then the blue post guarantees that 25 man raids will drop at least 6.
Also, 25 man raids will NOT go out of style, for serious progression-oriented guilds, 25 mans will remain easy enough to put together, and will result in faster upgrades for the raiders. I would be surprised to see any 25 man pugs though (especially near the start of cataclysm).

Before I start ranting: my current schedule prohibits evening raiding, but I'd like to think I'm a fairly skilled player. My 10 man group is 9/12 hardmodes, and I expect to see Sindragosa and Putricide down soon. Look up Kreledrell of Shattered Hand.
Anyway, Yes, in general 10 man raids are currently easier than 25 man raids, and intentionally so. It is, however, quite possible to have 10 man encounters with equal difficulty to 25 man encounters... look at current 10 man hardmodes vs 25 man normal, where the 10H is actually significantly more difficult than 25. Yes, the mechanics on a few encounters (BQL, most notably) are much easier to deal with on 10 man than 25, but cutting the number of people creates other issues. To the person who stated that 10 man trivializes the difficulty of spreading out for empowered shock vortex... Yes, that particular aspect is harder. But try managing kinetic bombs in that large 25-man size room with, say, 2 ranged dps... there's one aspect of the fight that's significantly harder on 10 man. Healing, also, gets easier the more healers you add. Even if the required healing per second done by each healer is higher on a 25 man, you have MUCH greater flexibility to move and respond to mechanics than in a 10 man. The reason that 10 mans generally use 3 healers (30% of the raid) as opposed to the 25 man raid's 5 healers (20% of the raid) is that when one healer has to move away from malleable goo, you're losing a much greater percentage of your heals, and the limited GCDs of the remaining healers are less equipped to pick up the slack.
Anyway, I'm going to try to stop ranting against people who are snubbing 10 mans, but I'd like to point out one more thing... there are only 39 US guilds that have killed 10 man hardmode lich king. Blizzard IS capable of creating challenging 10 man content, and you need to put aside your assumptions based on the current 10 mans and enter a new paradigm where 25 does not arbitrarily mean "more difficult".

Personally, I'm a little concerned for my current 10 raid group (most of them are involved in my guild 25 mans, and wouldn't be able to continue with me in Cataclysm), but I think that the overall structure of what Blizzard is doing is fair and probably a good thing. The most worrisome thing in my view is simply the difficulty of retaining 25 people for a regular raiding group when they have the option of doing easier-to-organize 10 mans. My guild isn't bad (I was surprised to see us at 6th on my realm), but we are CASUAL, with no required raids, no calendar or forum raid sign-ups, and a relatively light schedule of 2-3 nights a week. We already have trouble getting more than ~20 consistent, skilled raiders, and I can only see that becoming more difficult as this change consolidates raids and gives people less flexibility in what they run for the week.

Ooook that's enough of my opinion for a while.

[Gron]

25 man raids will go out of style due to the bad serverpark Blizzard has.

25 man raids = 2.5x more chance of anyone DC during the fight.
The ideas posted are done so that people abandon 25 man raids, and Blizzard can close it with a sad face. If there are only 10 man raids its easier therefore cheaper to balance.

[Eüreka]

ABSOLUTELY NOT. Why give casual players an equal opportunity to get gear as myself? This will damage my self-esteem.

[Belial-sama]

No, it's not harder to get 25 ppl but it IS harder to get 25 ppl who can play.

Lol 10 men raids, just slap in your tanks ( who obviously CAN play ), your 3 healers and get 5 dps who can actually look at the screen while rolling their faces on the keyboard, and you're pro. Now do the same for a 25 men raid and the odds are at least 5 ppl in the raid shouldn't even be playing wow let alone being in a progression raid. :P

You obviously completely missed my point so I won't bother to correct you.
And your DPS comment for 10mans couldn't be more flawed either.

Oh wait, nvm, you're one of those "faceroll 10man in 25man gear = skill"
Why do I even bother.

[Fooliecoolie]

Personally I would not sweat this just yet until Blizzard brings up the Guild Advancement System in more detail. Because this will determine how guilds will function in Cataclysm on whether it will be better to be a small guild or a large guild.

[Kampret]

Loved it absolutely since i am planning to become more casual (1-2 raid days a week) and finally some leftover time to lvl up my alts!

[dadichris]

Voting for or against these changes serves no purpose as long as the context remains unknown. Everyone is using the existing BC and WotLK raid instances as examples to support their arguments here, but I don't think any of us can predict what raiding is going to be like in Cat. If Blizzard evolves the raiding experience properly these changes will be great for everyone. If they don't then the naysayers will be proven right.

[LeopoldD23]

Think they trying to make this game even more simple/dull then it is atm.Wotlk is dissaster compared to BC and the BC was worse then Vanilla wow. (my opinion) They ruined the concept of the game already and they keep doing so....i dont understand why they removed 40man raids at first place (probably its easier for them to make an instance for less ppl) and looks like in near future same will happen with 25mans.What was the point of Naxx? Everyone cleared it in 1st week.Togc....Big circle and bosses keep coming...then finally you fell down...whoa.And the bosses were also really boring/easy to defeat with minimal effort,or some were bad copies of bosses from previous content.I really liked idea that you couldnt jump into BT straight when you dinged 70 not only cause you didnt have the gear for it ,you had to complete the long quest by clearing previous raids (SSC/MH),these days you ding 80 and after 1 week basiclly you can jump straight into IC...its true...i did with my alt.Thing is :if everyone clear all ,or most of the content really fast you have nothing interesting to do in game,even pvp gear is a joke to get now.But Blizzard dont care about good players (i aint one) they keep turning this game into kido game ,and for casual players only,but those casuals will play for month or two while other people that played game for couple of years will be gone already (lots of old players /qwow already).One more thing i dont understand,what is the point of CC in PVE? In Wotlk every tanking class got the great AOE tanking abilities and the mobs/trash just gets aoed down..its retarded tbh.
Why they removed profesions quests,like the one from BS etc + i really liked the idea that you can chose between armorsmith and weaponsmith and forge some nasty weapon/armor,the game itself were more complex in every aspect ,now they making it simpler while they keep getting the money like they did in the past.They gave us achievment points and pets to keep us busy while we aint raiding..they missed the whole point.

[Sageless]

Hate the change of locking out 10 mans if you do the 25 man version. Basically will mean 25 mans will die off unless there is either a major loot advantage (4 to 1 or higher) and some serious vanity items or they tune 10 mans to actually be just as difficult (which actually means healing/tanking/dps requirements should be harder as mechanics on 10 are easier).

I do like the limitation on emblems you can farm each week. This 1 change would kill of the argument you see a lot that raiders in the current situation need to do 10+25's to get more emblems. I'd rather have them do this and reduce the itemlevel difference between 10 and 25 to 6 and get the difficulty level closer together:

So in current ICC tems:

- 10 man normal = ilvl 258
- 25 man normal = ilvl 264
- 10 man heroic = ilvl 271
- 25 man heroic = ilvl 277

This would mean the best gear is still available in 25 mans (incentive), but the difference between 10 and 25 man is small enough to allow 10 man to be challenging without having 25 man gear trivialise it. The only issue would be people can gear up faster if they are lucky. On the other hand as you shouldn't be able to equip multiple items with the same name (at least if they continue the trend of ICC), and gearing is still tied to killing bosses, which should be more difficult if 10 and 25 mans are closes together challenge wise.