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  1. #1
    Legendary! gherkin's Avatar
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    [Guide] Channelled Spell & DoT Mechanics in Cataclysm

    Both Channelled Spells and DoT's are changing so that they are benefit from Haste without shortening the duration by half, and to prevent clipping. This is my attempt at an explanation. Don't worry, the changes are GOOD.

    HASTE:
    Haste will be calculated as it is now for hasted spells, but if there is suddenly room for another tick, the spell expands to allow that extra tick. This means that with sufficient haste, you will be casting 4 ticks of Mind Flay or 6 shots of Arcane Missiles in the period you previously shot 3 or 5. The last tick will always occur when the spell expires, as it does now.

    Example 1:
    Assume you have 30% haste on a Mind Flay (works for any spell, dots included)

    Take the time between ticks, for Mind Flay this is 1s.
    Apply haste: 1s / 1.3 = .7692s

    How many of these fit into the base duration? For Mind Flay, this is 3 seconds.
    3 / .7692 = 3.9
    We always round down, so 3

    Your new mind flay will have 3 ticks every .7692s for a total duration of 2.3 seconds.


    Example 2:
    Assume you have 40% haste on a Mind Flay

    Take the time between ticks, for Mind Flay this is 1s.
    Apply haste: 1s / 1.4 = .7143s

    How many of these fit into the base duration? For Mind Flay, this is 3 seconds.
    3 / .7143 = 4.2
    We always round down, so 4

    Your new mind flay will have 4 ticks every .7143s for a total duration of 2.86 seconds.


    Example 3:
    Assume you have 20% haste + Eradication + Heroism + Aura on a Unstable Affliction (15s duration, 5 ticks every 3 seconds)
    This is 1.2 x 1.2 x 1.3 x 1.03 = 92.8% Haste

    Apply haste: 3s / 1.928 = 1.556s

    How many of these fit into the base duration?
    15 / 1.556 = 9.64
    We always round down, so 9

    Your new UA will have 9 ticks every 1.556s for a total duration of 14.004 seconds.

    #################################


    CLIPPING:
    You will no longer be able to clip your spells and have a period of no damage from the dot. In WOTLK, if you recast a DoT with .1 seconds remaining, the tick that would have happened in .1 seconds is essentially deleted. You get nothing. In Cataclysm, if you recast a DoT with .1 seconds remaining, the next tick will still occur in .1 seconds and the duration of the DoT will adjust to fit. For example, if you sat still and spammed the crap out of your Corruption spell, it would actually do damage in Cataclysm. Would it be smart to do so? Not really, you're not casting any other spells and uselessly maintaining 100% uptime on corruption.

    Sometimes you will in fact lose a tick (damage done) due to haste and the moment you clipped, but you will not lose DPS from that particular spell. Sometimes you will not lose the tick. Here is what I mean.

    Let's use example 3:
    Your new UA will have 9 ticks every 1.556s for a total duration of 14.004 seconds.


    This means that you can refresh the old one with less than .996 seconds remaining (base - hasted duration). The duration of the new spell will be 14.004 + duration remaining. It will have 10 ticks instead of 9. Cool, hey? Here's the logic

    Refresh at .5 seconds remaining:
    A) New spell = 14.504s duration.
    B) Is this under max duration (15s)?
    D) Yes: 14.504s duration with the next tick occuring at 14.004s and every 1.556s after that.


    If you refresh with more than .996 seconds remaining, the duration of the new spell will be greater than 15 seconds. In this case you lose a tick of the new spell

    Refresh at 1.5 seconds remaining
    A) New spell = 15.504s duration.
    B) Is this under max duration (15s)?
    C) No: Minus a tick 15.504 - 1.556 = 13.948s duration
    B) Is this under max duration (15s)?
    D) Yes: 13.948s duration with the next tick occuring at 12.448s and every 1.556s after that.


    #################################


    IMPACT ON US AS DPS:
    Gameplay remains unchanged. You should never clip a spell, intentional or not. Intentional clipping just causes you to cast more spells to maintain the exact same 100% uptime. This results in fewer GCD's in which to use filler spells. Overall, the clipping change is good for people learning to play without being overly punished. Over a 5 minute fight, clipping 10 times, you will lose 2 filler spells total. Currently, you would lose 10 ticks which are valued much more than 2 fillers, and it would not be easy to detect from a log parse or recount. This is bad and the fix is good.

    However.

    There is the possibility of using an addon to calculate optimal refresh time. Due to the mechanics of haste and dot clipping, there may be times where you have a choice to clip or cast a filler spell, and the clip will result in more dps. If your haste + remaining duration is such that it appends the duration to a fresh cast and does not result in a lost tick, it will be more beneficial to clip. However, the window for this is exceptionally small - less than 1 second in most cases. I expect that at some point there will be a mod for this, but the capability to make full use of it will depend on the ability of the mod to forecast your dps rotation. It would have to think ahead 2 spells in order to tell you when it is optimal to clip.


    R.I.P. YARG

  2. #2
    Legendary! gherkin's Avatar
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    Re: [Guide] Channelled Spell & DoT Mechanics in Cataclysm

    I won't cross post this, but anyone with a spammable dot or channel mechanic is urged to pass this on to your peers. This includes Mages (Arcane Missiles), Hunters (Serpent Sting), Warriors (Rend), Death Knights/Shadow Priests (duh.), and so on and so forth.

    R.I.P. YARG

  3. #3

    Re: [Guide] Channelled Spell & DoT Mechanics in Cataclysm

    Ace, this is welcomed

  4. #4
    Epic! Tearor's Avatar
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    Re: [Guide] Channelled Spell & DoT Mechanics in Cataclysm

    awesome.
    thanks gherkin.
    I suppose this will be the standard compendium every class is going to refer to
    No point mentioning these bats, I thought. The poor bastard will see them soon enough.

  5. #5
    Legendary! gherkin's Avatar
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    Re: [Guide] Channelled Spell & DoT Mechanics in Cataclysm

    If they want, it applies to all classes. I won't force them, however.

    R.I.P. YARG

  6. #6

    Re: [Guide] Channelled Spell & DoT Mechanics in Cataclysm

    Are we sure this is how its going to work in Cataclysm? I know they're going to implement the new system, but the exact details remained unknown - Unless I missed something.

    Anyways, good explanation. Will make for a little less of those awkward moments were your dot has like .5 seconds left yet Haunt is on cool down for 1 second, and the question is do you wait for haunt, cast Corrupt and clip or cast shadow bolt.
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  7. #7
    Legendary! gherkin's Avatar
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    Re: [Guide] Channelled Spell & DoT Mechanics in Cataclysm

    This is the only way they can implement it without it being a complete disaster. Any other design would allow you to have a dot with X.Y seconds remaining but no more ticks occurring or would have forced very specific haste gearing. This is something I believe blizzard is smart enough to identify and prevent. I've gone through every design I can think of and this is the only one that made sense as a player (Thank you channeled spell blue thread).

    And its also the simplest to learn. "Don't clip your spells, but if you do, it's not as painful as before" is much easier to explain than "Don't get more than ##.#% Haste otherwise you will be unable to intentionally clip your spell at .5s remaining to maximize dps."

    If anyone has an alternate thought on the matter that does not cause gear issues or time wasted issues, I'd be very open to hear it.

    R.I.P. YARG

  8. #8

    Re: [Guide] Channelled Spell & DoT Mechanics in Cataclysm

    I do have one question still on DoT and channeled spells that I don't think has been answered. Will they make their behaviour more consistent to changes in player statistics, buffs and debuffs in Cata? I am kind of annoyed by the metagame of refreshable DoTs for example, where you want to frontload them with all the modifiers that get determined once (and have to recast them to take advantage of say bloodlust). I think they should make it so each individual tick takes into account current conditions and erase memory effects entirely.

  9. #9
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    Re: [Guide] Channelled Spell & DoT Mechanics in Cataclysm

    Lock and druids are gonna be in heaven. This is such an awesome change!
    Quote Originally Posted by Okard View Post
    they took out chill of the throne, if you havent looked. Youre going to do 30% less than youre used to.

  10. #10
    Legendary! gherkin's Avatar
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    Re: [Guide] Channelled Spell & DoT Mechanics in Cataclysm

    Quote Originally Posted by Nymrohd
    I do have one question still on DoT and channeled spells that I don't think has been answered. Will they make their behaviour more consistent to changes in player statistics, buffs and debuffs in Cata? I am kind of annoyed by the metagame of refreshable DoTs for example, where you want to frontload them with all the modifiers that get determined once (and have to recast them to take advantage of say bloodlust).
    Yes, they will get rid of rolling corruption with 234289% crit.

    I think they should make it so each individual tick takes into account current conditions and erase memory effects entirely.
    No, they will not have the ticks individually update at that exact moment, otherwise you could kill the lock/whoever and have his dots do nothing. Ticks will be calculated every refresh or cast, for every stat.

    R.I.P. YARG

  11. #11
    Question, I have a boomkin, let's say I'm on the move with Starsurge/Starfall/Typhoon on CD or w/e, and I spam MF over again x3 or so. On the last application of MF, is the result the normal 16 sec durotan? Obvoiusly if my dots are down I would replace them seeming how IS is my highest DPET atm, but just had that question due to dot clipping as a boomkin with a MF spam.

  12. #12
    Quote Originally Posted by gherkin View Post
    No, they will not have the ticks individually update at that exact moment, otherwise you could kill the lock/whoever and have his dots do nothing. Ticks will be calculated every refresh or cast, for every stat.
    Actually, that's not what my testing on the beta showed at all. Granted I only did it with a rogue's rupture, but any attack power trinket procs would immediately increase the periodic dmg of rupture and lower it when they faded. All of that without re-applying the dot. For example: 2 ticks of say 800 dmg. Then your WFS procs and suddenly your ticks are hitting for 1000.

  13. #13
    Field Marshal Iffnar's Avatar
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    I have two little question I want to ask ... do AoE spells like blizzard, hellfire or RoF use the same mechanic or are they still clip-able?

    And does Conflagrate do the dmg of the added dot-ticks of immolate from this new haste mechanic? if so then suppose that destro locks would aim for a certain amount of haste where there is one or more added ticks of immolate?

    Edit: Second question
    Last edited by Iffnar; 2010-10-05 at 06:22 PM.

  14. #14
    Legendary! gherkin's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Myllo View Post
    Question, I have a boomkin, let's say I'm on the move with Starsurge/Starfall/Typhoon on CD or w/e, and I spam MF over again x3 or so. On the last application of MF, is the result the normal 16 sec durotan? Obvoiusly if my dots are down I would replace them seeming how IS is my highest DPET atm, but just had that question due to dot clipping as a boomkin with a MF spam.
    The duration would be 16 seconds or close enough. If theres room to increase w/o going over the 16 second duration then it will, otherwise it won't change and you won't clip. It will eventually tick for damage, at which point the duration would be refreshed (if you kept spamming)

    ---------- Post added 2010-10-05 at 01:14 PM ----------

    Quote Originally Posted by Mahadev View Post
    Actually, that's not what my testing on the beta showed at all. Granted I only did it with a rogue's rupture, but any attack power trinket procs would immediately increase the periodic dmg of rupture and lower it when they faded. All of that without re-applying the dot. For example: 2 ticks of say 800 dmg. Then your WFS procs and suddenly your ticks are hitting for 1000.
    I will re-test when I get home, this was written before Beta went live.

    ---------- Post added 2010-10-05 at 01:15 PM ----------

    Quote Originally Posted by Iffnar View Post
    I have two little question I want to ask ... do AoE spells like blizzard, hellfire or RoF use the same mechanic or are they still clip-able?

    And does Conflagrate do the dmg of the added dot-ticks of immolate from this new haste mechanic? if so then suppose that destro locks would aim for a certain amount of haste where there is one or more added ticks of immolate?

    Edit: Second question
    AOE channelled spells are affected by haste too with the same mechanic, as they are channelled spells.

    It does damage equal to 5 ticks of Immolate. Not 15 seconds of Immolate.

    R.I.P. YARG

  15. #15
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    Quote Originally Posted by gherkin View Post
    I won't cross post this, but anyone with a spammable dot or channel mechanic is urged to pass this on to your peers. This includes Mages (Arcane Missiles), Hunters (Serpent Sting), Warriors (Rend), Death Knights/Shadow Priests (duh.), and so on and so forth.
    Warriors DOTs dont scale with haste And they wont at least for quite long time. GC said that, so for warrs this sint as useful.

    ---------- Post added 2010-10-05 at 09:26 PM ----------

    for the record:

    "Haste does not affect Rend ticks. Our general philosophy is that melee dots do not need to be sped up. Melee benefits from haste by generating more resources. Thus, there should be no Taste for Blood losses with haste. Rend can crit however. "

    "Garrote and Rupture are not affected by haste. I am not aware of any melee dots that are.

    We want haste to apply to as close to 100% of your damage as possible. For casters it always applied to cast time spells. Now it also applies to dots. For melee, it improves your auto attack damage but also grants you more resources, therefore improving your special attacks as well. "

    http://www.worldofraids.com/wow-blue...1-bonuses.html
    Quote Originally Posted by warcraftmew View Post
    This is what a blizz blue said about charge and also they are putting pummel and disrupting shout on the same DR seriously blizzard its hard enough as a warrior to beat casters [...]
    in patch 5.4...

  16. #16
    Legendary! gherkin's Avatar
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    Note the date of the post you're quoting - April 27th :P

    I'll update once I get home and double check a few things. I'm aware of the melee mechanic change, but I need to double check Serpent Sting and a few others.

    R.I.P. YARG

  17. #17
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    True, but before that post they still didnt scale, i just put reason why they dont scale
    Quote Originally Posted by warcraftmew View Post
    This is what a blizz blue said about charge and also they are putting pummel and disrupting shout on the same DR seriously blizzard its hard enough as a warrior to beat casters [...]
    in patch 5.4...

  18. #18
    Bloodsail Admiral DarkBlade6's Avatar
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    Do you know how Physical DOT works ? Like Rake, Rip, Rupture, Rend ... do Haste affect them like any other spell dot, on the PTR they dont seem to be affected .. and lets say i apply Rake then couple sec later my Trinket proc an attack power buff, will it affect all next tick of my current rake ??
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  19. #19
    Banned Bakis's Avatar
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    No dots from melee are affected by haste.

    "Haste does not affect Rend ticks. Our general philosophy is that melee dots do not need to be sped up. Melee benefits from haste by generating more resources. Thus, there should be no Taste for Blood losses with haste. Rend can crit however."

    "Garrote and Rupture are not affected by haste. I am not aware of any melee dots that are.
    We want haste to apply to as close to 100% of your damage as possible. For casters it always applied to cast time spells. Now it also applies to dots. For melee, it improves your auto attack damage but also grants you more resources, therefore improving your special attacks as well."

    http://forums.worldofwarcraft.com/th...sid=1&pageNo=3
    Last edited by Bakis; 2010-10-06 at 07:44 AM.

  20. #20
    Quote Originally Posted by gherkin View Post
    We always round down, ...
    Actually, we don't.

    Quotes from EJ (source: Warlock Cataclysm Preview):
    Haste and DoTs
    On the 10-4-10 PTR my naked warlock's corruption ticked 6 times over 18 seconds, and BoA ticked 12 times over 24 seconds. With my gear I have 1145 haste rating, or 34.92% haste. With gear, my corruption ticked 8 times over 18 seconds, and BoA ticked 16 times over 24 seconds (33 percent more ticks on both counts). UA, naked, ticked 5 times, and ticked 7 times with gear on (a 40% change) So we know the game doesn't round down, but rather appears to round to the nearest tick.
    I basically found the same thing when I was playing around with immolate and haste yesterday. It seems like it takes the ticks/duration with haste factored in and then rounds to the nearest tick (less than x.5 ticks would round down and greater than x.5 ticks would round up).

    Naked, immolate ticks for 5 times over 15 seconds. When I put on enough gear to get 10.28% haste, which reduces the time per tick to 2.72s = 5.51 ticks over 15 seconds, I started getting 6 ticks of the immolate. Drop haste down to about 9% and it drops back to 5 ticks.
    That makes the whole "clipping is bad" statement neccessary to be reviewed, because in that case, you never loose ticks if you clip between the last and the second last tick.
    Last edited by Luzzifus; 2010-10-06 at 08:44 AM.

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