New Rogue Question.....

[Mikki]

OK, Why does a Mutilate rogue not take the tier 1 talent Oppotunity in Sub? Yet they take Relentless Strikes?

Relentless Strikes lokes nice i admit but how much better that a 20% + damage to your main spam ability?

Obviously its correct but I was wondering if someone could explain why Mut rogues cant find 2 spare points for 20% on there main use ability?

Nearly 80 so trying to understand Rogues more and this stood out to me as odd......

[Stackattack]

maths say that energy gain from 2/5 relentless strikes is more dps than opportunity, due to higher Envenom buff uptime.

[Deleted]

Generally speaking, in raid scenarios, by far most of your damage comes from white swings (33%) and poisons (33%+), followed by around 15% from Envenom. The damage Mutilate alone produces is relatively very small.

The somewhat slim chance to get 25 energy back is better for CPG (Combo Point Generation, ie. Mutilate sooner) and thus keeping the Envenom buff 'rolling', which outputs a lot of your damage (guaranteed poison applications during Envenom on weapon hits).

The only time when you 'should' worry about Mutilate damage (Opportunity, Dual Wield Spec, two 1.80 daggers) is in a PvP scenario, where - also generally speaking - burst matters more than sustained damage.

[bakkes]

Hi,

the reason why PvE Mutilate rogues dont pick Opportunity in Sub, is because when you take a look at the cake of percentages of all your damage done, you will see that the ability Mutilate is only a small part of the cake (I dare to say between 10 and 15% ?). So right now, its now worth it to spend 2 talent points to increase the damage of an ability thats already low.

If you're wondering what makes Relentless Attacks better than Opportunity, then I suggest you to check out the rogue section on Elitistjerks.com's forum. There are some people on those forums who apply values (EP) on talents and the whole reasoning behind it.

TL;DR While Muti is ur mainattack, its dmg suck too hard to try to buff it.

[Mikki]

Ok. Thanks and awesome not to get flamed.....

NEXT QUESTION. The mechanics of Envemon. I have not used it yet as at 60 with flight leveling with Combat and just landing ontop of you targets and nuking is SOOO much quicker than Mut/Sub.

So basically ina long Boss fight the DPS rotation for Mut is........

Mut, S&D, HfB, Mut till 5 and Envenom.

DPS buff Priority is S&D>HfB>Envenom Buff?

Use Envenom with as high energy pulled as poss to get Muts out while Envenom Buff is up?

Thats about the deal right?

[Stackattack]

envenom at 4+ cps, manage energy to keep envenom buff up as much as possible, along with pushing mutilates while evnenom is up for poison procs.

[Lugo Moll]

Ok. Thanks and awesome not to get flamed.....

NEXT QUESTION. The mechanics of Envemon. I have not used it yet as at 60 with flight leveling with Combat and just landing ontop of you targets and nuking is SOOO much quicker than Mut/Sub.

So basically ina long Boss fight the DPS rotation for Mut is........

Mut, S&D, HfB, Mut till 5 and Envenom.

DPS buff Priority is S&D>HfB>Envenom Buff?

Use Envenom with as high energy pulled as poss to get Muts out while Envenom Buff is up?

Thats about the deal right?

Hunger for Blood is highest priority. Slice and Dice will be kept up by CttC. Mut til 4-5 (don't mut again if you got 4). Try to not clip the envenom buff. So if you got 4-5 combo points and envenom buff is still up, pool energy and wait for it to fall off. However don't let your energy cap yo 100. So sometimes you have to clip the buff.

[Stackattack]

Hunger for Blood is highest priority. Slice and Dice will be kept up by CttC. Mut til 4-5 (don't mut again if you got 4). Try to not clip the envenom buff. So if you got 4-5 combo points and envenom buff is still up, pool energy and wait for it to fall off. However don't let your energy cap yo 100. So sometimes you have to clip the buff.

snd is higher priority than hfb.

[Deleted]

Ok. Thanks and awesome not to get flamed.....

NEXT QUESTION. The mechanics of Envemon. I have not used it yet as at 60 with flight leveling with Combat and just landing ontop of you targets and nuking is SOOO much quicker than Mut/Sub.

Yeah, I wouldn't really use Envenom for leveling. What I found very enjoyable though was a PvP-build of Mutilate Preperation. At least Mutilate with the Stealth Speed bonus. Also the -20 energy on Cheap Shot made me mow down mobs like no tomorrow with no downtime (as I've got them stunned all the time).

So basically ina long Boss fight the DPS rotation for Mut is........

Mut, S&D, HfB, Mut till 5 and Envenom.

DPS buff Priority is S&D>HfB>Envenom Buff?

Use Envenom with as high energy pulled as poss to get Muts out while Envenom Buff is up?

Thats about the deal right?

Basicly, it's like this (for me):

a) Try to open with Garrote, if it works, use HfB and 2CP SnD right after.
Or:
b) Can't open with Garrote, use Mutilate once. See if you can use HfB from a third-party bleed (deep wounds, piercing shot, etc). If not, use a 2-3 CP Rupture and then HfB.

Then comes your main rotation:
1) Mutilate to 4+ CP (doesn't have to be 5 for max DPS)
2) Use Envenom (provided you have Deadly on your OH and Instant on your MH).

That's it really. Be sure HfB gets refreshed every ~58 seconds. Use a Rupture in your rotation if you must to keep at least one bleed up on the target (needed in some 10-man raids where the only bleed damage can come from you).

Use a Vanish + Garrote once in a while for the Overkill buff. I usually use it right after my Overkill from the stealth opener fades, so I can use Vanish a second time in the counter again.

Save Cold Blood for the first 5 CP Envenom you can make.

[Deleted]

snd is higher priority than hfb.

SnD will get refreshed to 20 seconds every time you use Envenom or Eviscerate: http://www.wowhead.com/spell=51669

However, if it DOES fall off (ToC Anub, etc), be sure to refresh it ASAP.

[Mikki]

SnD will get refreshed to 20 seconds every time you use Envenom or Eviscerate: http://www.wowhead.com/spell=51669

However, if it DOES fall off (ToC Anub, etc), be sure to refresh it ASAP.

Mate that is not the point the question correctly answered is Buff Priority. And S&D has priority over HfB. I am not asking about rotations in a perfect world.

I have all the info i need thanks everyone.

[Deleted]

Mate that is not the point the question correctly answered is Buff Priority. And S&D has priority over HfB. I am not asking about rotations in a perfect world.

I have all the info i need thanks everyone.

You still asked for rotations, and I gave you my answers. No need to thank me for that.

[Ais]

SnD will get refreshed to 20 seconds every time you use Envenom or Eviscerate: http://www.wowhead.com/spell=51669

However, if it DOES fall off (ToC Anub, etc), be sure to refresh it ASAP.

It's still higher priority than HfB.
Also I don't get why open with garrote? If I have bleed bot, which is usually the case in 25-mans, I just open with mutilate, gives 2 combo points and more damage.
E: And positioning yourself behind to boss for garrote will also decrease your time dpsing.

[K4ge]

You should be behind the boss regardless of everything that's going on, but garrote is nonetheless a dps decrease.

And mutilate does an average of 12-13% of you total damage, so it basically sucks.

[Amgyn]

This is what I will usually do:

Opening up up:

If there is a druid/warrior/hunter with bleed pet -> Open with Mutilate
Otherwise garrote.

Starting up rotation:
SnD, HFB, Envenom if I got a combo point out of SND, other wise 1 mutilate->envenom.

pop all cooldowns (including vanish, except CB) if possible, as soon as the first 4/5 point envenom comes, and spam mutilate.
the next 5cp envenom gets CB.

rotation:
now i just cycle Mut and envenom.

SnD should never drop.
HfB renews on a 1/2 point rupture if no other bleeds....
popping cooldowns as they come off.


====

recently i've been trying to watch the envenom buff and energy pool... but i'm still getting used to it..

[Spoogles]

OK, Why does a Mutilate rogue not take the tier 1 talent Oppotunity in Sub? Yet they take Relentless Strikes?

Relentless Strikes lokes nice i admit but how much better that a 20% + damage to your main spam ability?

Obviously its correct but I was wondering if someone could explain why Mut rogues cant find 2 spare points for 20% on there main use ability?

Nearly 80 so trying to understand Rogues more and this stood out to me as odd......

:O I got this one covered no need for teh others :3 its because 51/18/2 isn't BASED around Mutilate persay its absed around Poison damage and White damage so how does opportunity help us there xD