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  1. #21
    I am Murloc! Fenixdown's Avatar
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    Re: Disc HPS on recount.

    Quote Originally Posted by xxAkirhaxx
    Skada is a very good add on to replace recount, and omen. It also tracks absorbs+healing.
    This. Use Skada. On top of which, Skada's numbers are actually far more accurate for everything (including DPS) than Recount, as Skada feeds straight from the combat log. It just lacks alot of the extra flavor (pie charts, ect.) that Recount has.

    But if someone links a Recount at you for HPS, link back at them a Skada report of healing + absorbs. Then enjoy their reactions when they all see that you're kicking their asses.

  2. #22

    Re: Disc HPS on recount.

    :

    Recount reads straight from the combat log as well.

    The only difference is what Skada and Recount are treating as DPS. Both put out identical numbers with identical combat log settings... the reason HPS/DPS show up as different is because they each calculate active/inactive time differently. You should always be using EHPS and EDPS, not raw. Healing/Damage done divided by fight length. Not activity time.

    And again... never use healing + absorb combined meters. Always use them separately. You're mixing a very misleading number (absorbs) with a very accurate number (heals), which pollutes the figures.

  3. #23

    Re: Disc HPS on recount.

    I've been healing as Disc for quite a while now and had a similar experience in VoA today where a paladin at the end of the raid laughed and said "Ha, we did that even though the other healer was doing 1/2 what I did" At which point I told him I'm Disc, my numbers don't show up on the meters. He just called me a scrub and left group. Keep in mind nobody died the entire time.

    So, I've been thinking of swapping to holy, but it's just not as effective in heroics. Disc allows me to mitigate a huge amount of the tank damage and do virtually nothing the entire fight unless it hits the fan. It's also super mana efficient. So in Heroics I will always use Disc, the only time it's annoying is when there's a fight where everybody is taking damage because then the raw +heal of Holy would be nice, but don't really have issues even without it.

    People saying it's not viable...stupid. All other healers are reactionary, the damage has to come in before they can do anything about it, a Disc priest can do something about the damage before it even arrives by giving 3% RAID WIDE damage reduction, Aegis, PW:S. They provide a much needed buffer zone making the fights altogether safer. So, whatever damage was done to the raid, multiply that by 1.03 and subtract the total damage done and count that in your healing done. On top of that count how many times you cast PW:S and multiply that by 6000 (would do 10 but we all know that it isn't always used so we'll count 40% as overheal). Now lets count the number of times you crit over the course of the fight giving 10% armor increase to the tank or raid members.

    About the "Inflation" in HPS meters used for PW:S. Keep in mind they don't take into account the armor buff, nor the 3% raid wide damage reduction. I dunno if they take Aegis into consideration.

    Should a Disc Priest be a Raid healer, prolly not, that's what the holy tree is for, but they can definitely heal a MT and are a huge asset to the raid. Are druids better, yeah, have fun being OP *Golf Clap* we all know druid players need to be OP otherwise they would have to go back to Hello Kitty Island Paradise.

  4. #24

    Re: Disc HPS on recount.

    IMO disc is being kept viable by gimmick mechanics like Infest. Outside of fights with these mechanics, Even though its a relatively new spec, anything that hard to value is bad in a group settings.

  5. #25
    I am Murloc! Fenixdown's Avatar
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    Re: Disc HPS on recount.

    Quote Originally Posted by harky
    :

    Recount reads straight from the combat log as well.

    The only difference is what Skada and Recount are treating as DPS. Both put out identical numbers with identical combat log settings... the reason HPS/DPS show up as different is because they each calculate active/inactive time differently. You should always be using EHPS and EDPS, not raw. Healing/Damage done divided by fight length. Not activity time.

    And again... never use healing + absorb combined meters. Always use them separately. You're mixing a very misleading number (absorbs) with a very accurate number (heals), which pollutes the figures.
    I've run Recount and Skada simultaneously to get different numbers.

    No, they do not work the same.

    But you have proven time and again that you hate discipline priests, so your argument automatically becomes invalid.

    Oh, and absorb + healing is not an innacurate description of what a person is doing, especially since discipline is completely designed around mitigation, not healing. So fail comparison is fail.


  6. #26

    Re: Disc HPS on recount.

    Quote Originally Posted by Fenixdown
    I've run Recount and Skada simultaneously to get different numbers.

    No, they do not work the same.

    But you have proven time and again that you hate discipline priests, so your argument automatically becomes invalid.

    Oh, and absorb + healing is not an innacurate description of what a person is doing, especially since discipline is completely designed around mitigation, not healing. So fail comparison is fail.
    They may not work the same, but I've found Recount's numbers to be more consistent across the board, whereas Skada will fall out of sync too quickly, attributing some things but not others. I've noticed this on multiple downloads, multiple computers, and several of my raid members agree that Skada is not really better than Recount.

    And I've proven to have a low tolerance for people trying their hardest to top any meter, be it healing or damage, without being effective. DPS can do it too, Shadow Priests/Affliction Warlocks tossing DoTs on the inactive Blood Princes for full damage comes to mind instantly. Shields are one and the same, many many times over, except shields don't show up as "overheal", they just auto guarantee HoTs and multi-target effects go into overheal instead.

    Greatest way to test a Discipline Priest's real worth? Drop him for a week, or at least a night. Do your healers actually notice the gap there? If yes, congrats you have a great Priest. If not, you just found yourself an open slot and can fill it with a DPS to kill bosses faster. Feel free to repeat this test with any of your healers. You'll be down to your best ones in no-time.
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  7. #27

    Re: Disc HPS on recount.

    Recount tends to be more in line with logs so I've gone with it. Priest HPS is all about guessed absorbes though. Like for instance on a typical fight I'll do 2.5-3k HPS and then 7.5-8k HPS through absorbes. So the real estimated HPS is about 10.5k typically.

  8. #28

    Re: Disc HPS on recount.

    Quote Originally Posted by Neressa
    dividing by half is multiplying by two. what you want to say is "cut their HPS in half" or "divide their HPS by two."
    You could also say "Divide it in half"

  9. #29
    I am Murloc! Fenixdown's Avatar
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    Re: Disc HPS on recount.

    That I do agree with. That is definitely the best way to tell if your healer is good or bad, is if you can do just as well without them.

    However, the comparison I get between Skada and RecountGA in the absorbtion totals never seems to be the same, RGA always seems to be far higher than it should be. That has been my personal experience, dating back to 3.0.

    In regards to the "disc topping meters by preventing healing", I don't exactly understand what you mean. If there is incoming damage that can be prevented by a shield, why would you not shield a person? That is discipline's primary, and most effective, source of healing based on their spec design. As an example, I use Lich King and Infest. On LK10, I raid heal primarily. I merely bubble the entire raid before an Infest is going to occur. This prevents all, or very near, the entirety of incoming damage from the ability, allowing my other two healers to conserve mana for more threatening abilities that I may not be able to prevent through a shield. This also allows me a few seconds to aid the tank healer, if necessary.

    Now, if you mean, say, bubbling when you should be healing, or bubbling people that have no incoming damage to worry about, that would be different, yes. That shows that your disc priest is very ineffective with their mana and does not understand the full responsibility of their class and spec design. Simply put, just because bubbling is our major focus does not mean that it is all we do the entirety of a fight. We are still healers, and times when we are not healing when we should be is not something that shows up simply with discipline players, but all specs of healers. However, the way some encounters are designed, bubbling to prevent the necessity places far less stress on a job that may otherwise be more stressful if neglecting that duty.

    I do agree with "meter whores" being bad for raiding, period. I also have little tolerance for them, especially when attempting to do as such places themselves, and possibly even the entire raid, at risk.

  10. #30

    Re: Disc HPS on recount.

    Okay, four things:

    1. Skada and Recount only show different numbers for absorbs. This is because neither meter is accurate for absorbs and both use different assumptions to calculate them. Skada is closer to WMO. Recount is closer to WoL.

    2. Since neither Skada, or Recount is completely accurate in regard to absorbs using a combined Healing + Absorb meter will always give inaccurate results. This is because you're mixing an accurate source in a healing meter with an inaccurate one for absorbs and adding them together. They are best used separately so that the absorb figure can be accurately dissected.

    3. Disc does in fact shine most when you have too many healers. Because absorbs block incoming damage before it occurs if you have too many healers then Discipline should be able to beat all other healers. This advantage is exposed in fights like BQ25H where classes like Druid have their raw HPS uncapped, while Discipline's healing barely goes up between normal and hard.

    4. Discipline is my favorite healing spec among all five healing specs in game. Having a grasp of the inadequacies of a class is different from disliking it. Holy is also quite weak at the moment, but I enjoy Holy's playstyle more than a Druid's, despite Druid being substantially stronger.



    Oh and on an unrelated note. Dropping a healer is not a good way to test if a particular healer is good or bad. It's only a good way to test if you have too many healers. If you have 7 extremely talented healers in ICC hard modes then dropping 1, 2, or even 3 on some fights might make little to no difference. That doesn't change the skill level of those players, it's simply the result of having too many healers. The way to test how good a healer is not to drop them, but to include them and drop others to see how they function with a reduced healer count. It's particularly good for exposing healers when you pick a fight that is stressful on that type of healer. Swapping Paladins on Dreamwalker, or Festergut. Swapping Shaman on Blood Queen, or Sindragosa. Swapping Disc Priests on Lich King, or Holy Priests on Sindragosa and Festergut. It's hard to find a good fight to test Druids sadly, the only real option is Lich King, but it's such a bad fight for them that it's hard to spot problems.

    Honestly, the easiest way to spot a bad healer is to use a parsing program (or add-on) to check their activity time. Even if a player isn't casting the right spells, if they're extremely active then they can most likely be taught. If they're inactive then it's time to find a new healer.

  11. #31

    Re: Disc HPS on recount.

    I'm getting a bit annoyed by an opinion that I keep seeing here :

    Quote Originally Posted by harky
    This is again why Blizzard needs to allow the combat log to properly register absorbs. That way mods and parsing sites can actually accurately register how Disc heals. If it was currently done most Disc Priests would be embarrassed by how poorly they're really doing on many ICC fights.
    Where does that come from ? As far as I know, World of logs tracks absorbs pretty accurately. Where would that large difference with "reality" come from, to the point that they'd have to be embarassed ?

  12. #32

    Re: Disc HPS on recount.

    that quote comes from someone who clearly does not have a clue what there talking about.

    Disc is so good because of the way current encounters are structured and the specific way PWShield works. something that is a pre-emptive set up heal is always going to be superior to a method of healing after damage is taken. This is why hots and PWShield specifically is always amazing for raid healing, and more than likely the prefered method of healing for a long time to come.

    edit: My guild has a Holy paladin with a 6300 gear score and a Valanyr orange mace, and on any encounter that requires any decent amount of raid healing our disc priest will routinely beat this 6300 gear score Valanyr wielding holy paladin by a million or more total healing done in skada reports, and this is effective absorb/healing. It does not account for amounts of pwshields that do not absorb anything, checked this myself for certainty.

    Disc is the best raid healing out right now combined with a resto druid.
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  13. #33

    Re: Disc HPS on recount.

    Comparing disc to a holydin when it comes to raid healing isn't exactly fair, regardless of gear..

    Anyway, I've never heard this train of thought from anyone. Our guild uses world of logs and as far as I can see, the absorbed amounts are pretty damn accurate.

    Thing with healing is it's pretty binary. Someone either dies or they don't, that's pretty much the success/failure of a healer in most people's eyes... Any pro healer knows the meter only tells a small section of the story.

    So as long as you know you're healing well, who cares what anyone else has to say about it. :S

  14. #34

    Re: Disc HPS on recount.

    Meters do matter when you're trying to min-max healer composition. There's always a certain amount of incoming raid damage, and you need enough overall healing to cover it. The better the healing throughput, the less healers you need, the more dps you can bring.
    This is fairly important in my opinion, but wasn't really the point of my post.

    My quote of harky hints at a big flaw in the way WoL / GuessedAbsorbs / Skada track absorbs, which would be corrected if the combat log properly credited absorbs. I just don't see it, and maybe I'm missing something ?

  15. #35

    Re: Disc HPS on recount.

    Quote Originally Posted by Kalmah
    I'm getting a bit annoyed by an opinion that I keep seeing here :

    Where does that come from ? As far as I know, World of logs tracks absorbs pretty accurately. Where would that large difference with "reality" come from, to the point that they'd have to be embarassed ?
    The opinion comes from realistically a bit of truth. World of Logs reports one thing about absorbs: They're happening. They can't attribute it to which person correctly, especially when you factor in survival abilities, because they read from the combat log.

    The combat log gives you this:
    Random Troll was hit by Kelesti's Banhammer (Absorbed 29 582).
    The combat log cannot attribute which absorb techniques went to which person, only who the last person was to trigger them. If 90% of that 29k hit was a Disc Priest's doing, but your Druid's Valan'yr procs ontop of it just before the damage, the druid gets full credit. Instantly. Just from the way the combat log works, and things reading from it recording.

    You factor in Savage Defense, a Holy Priest correctly using Body and Soul, Mana Shield, Shadow Ward, Val'anyr, Sacred Shield, Divine Sacrifice, and the list of possible absorbs on a fight suddenly goes up from just your Power Word: Shield and Divine Aegis. The real thing that supported this was the Twin Valk'yr in ToGC, because the immunity also counted as "Absorb", and would credit you if you were the last one to place an effect on them. Infact, on that fight as a holy priest, 38% of my healing was done by Divine Aegis, and 20% was Circle of Healing. I didn't know that I could spec both at the same time :-\

    It's not World of Logs' fault, Skada, Recount, etc. It's Blizzard's. When people can realise that bloated logs are nothing more than educated guesses, and those few who cling to them to try and prove their worth, Kalmah, that's where harky's statement comes in. And quite frankly, it's the truth. I also can't wait for hopeful implementation of wasted buffer zones, to those that say "I don't overheal".
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  16. #36

    Re: Disc HPS on recount.

    Quote Originally Posted by Kelesti

    The combat log gives you this:The combat log cannot attribute which absorb techniques went to which person, only who the last person was to trigger them. If 90% of that 29k hit was a Disc Priest's doing, but your Druid's Valan'yr procs on top of it just before the damage, the druid gets full credit. Instantly. Just from the way the combat log works, and things reading from it recording.

    You factor in Savage Defense, a Holy Priest correctly using Body and Soul, Mana Shield, Shadow Ward, Val'anyr, Sacred Shield, Divine Sacrifice, and the list of possible absorbs on a fight suddenly goes up from just your Power Word: Shield and Divine Aegis.
    So would that mean that my guessed absorbs in my 10 man where I either single heal, two heal with a shaman or Druid (Druid has an amazing boomkin set so he usually goes dps when we only need two healers) or three heal with them both and neither has Val'anyr are more accurate than your raids with more absorb mechanics?

    I find it interesting that 98% of the disc hate I see (not that the quoted post is an example but just in general) comes from holy priests. I cannot think of one other (intelligent i.e. Not the paladin from VoA mentioned above) healer that i have played with that has said to me they hate disc. In fact, most say they love healing with a disc priest.

    It is kind of like the groups that do raids in only blues. It certainly isn't the most optimal but they have fun and get it done all the same. Where is the problem in that?

  17. #37

    Re: Disc HPS on recount.

    I had to laugh on one occaision. I also adapted my Recount to show "Guessed Heals and Absorbs". It may not be 100% accurate but it does show the raid how hard we work by throwing up numbers of how much damage we absorb.

    Anyway as I was saying once in Voa25 I topped the heal and absorb for the whole fight and the poor Paladin (whom I am sure was used to being on top everytime) shouted a whole lot of abuse at me and finished off saying "Absorbs dont fucking count you noob" I had a proper chuckle but it is an example of how prejudiced other healers have when they see actually how decent we are at absorbing and healing.


  18. #38

    Re: Disc HPS on recount.

    Suture, my current main healer is a Resto Druid. I play my Holy Paladin and Priest (Holy + Disc off-spec) about equally. It really isn't about jealousy, or any other issues.

    About why absorb meters are always wrong: Blizzards combat log only allows three things. First it allows us to see who gains an absorb and from whom. Second it allows us to see absorbed damage. Third it allows us to see absorbs fading. The issue with absorbs being so wrong deals with exactly these issues and what assumptions are made about them.

    There are two main ways that parsing programs/meters try to analyze absorbs. First you can run a check of whenever a buff is gained, then track how much that person absorbs until that buff is gone. Second you can run a check of triggers and credit absorbs when they occur. You can also mix and match both of these together, which is what Skada and WMO do. None of the ways to do it allow for completely accurate results.

    The problem is not the meters, or the sites, or the parse. The problem is the combat log itself. I know people want to believe in Skada, or Guessed Absorbs, or WoL, or WMO. In order of how much they can be trusted, it would be WoL > Guessed Absorbs > WMO > Skada. If you use Skada's separate healing and absorb meters then I'd rank it above WMO. The issue here is that you can look at logs and find massive discrepancies. WoL and WMO are the easiest to get quick access to, so here's some quick ones. I'm using Festergut because it's one of the more accurate fights for absorbs, but also a fight where pure shield spam is not optimal.

    WoL: Random Disc Priest (Proudjaena, #32) - http://www.worldoflogs.com/reports/f...893#Proudjaena
    Fight Duration: 4:56 - 296 seconds
    Possible GCDs: 296
    Non-PW:S casts: 11 PoM, 1 Renew, 1 Hymn (crediting at 3 GCDs)
    Maximum PW:S casts: 281
    Shield Size: ~8.5k -- 10% buff in effect
    PW:S healing recorded: 1,563,254
    Max PW:S healing possible: ~2,388,500
    Problem spotted: PW:S is registering very low.
    Divine Aegis reported: 988,865
    Total crit heals: 233,933
    Modified by overhealing: 396,985
    Maximum DA possible: 119,095
    Difference: 869,770
    Difference attributed to PW:S: 1,563,254 + 869,770 = 2,433,024

    Summary: While the log itself is completely inaccurate, an understanding of the log will give you a proper readout to analyze this Priest's performance. She spammed PW:S for the entire encounter, only using Hymn, PoM and a single Renew. This is primarily an argument towards Disc shining when you have too many healers. Case follows: Druid's healing modified by overhealing - 5.6m, First Paladin - 6.9m, Shaman - 3.2m, Holy Priest - 3.5m, Second Paladin - 5.3m. The Disc Priest in question - 3.5m.


    WMO: Random Disc Priest (Klerk, #19) - http://www.wowmeteronline.com/combat...757#healingout
    Fight Duration: 3:51 - 231 seconds
    Possible GCDs: 231
    Non-PW:S casts: 7 PoM, 1 Hymn (crediting 3 GCDs), 1 Penance (crediting 1.5 GCDs)
    Max possible PW:S casts: 219
    Shield Size: ~8.8k -- 15% buff in effect
    PW:S healing recorded: 1,664,116
    Max PW:S healing possible: ~1,927,200
    Over-healing reported from PW:S: 358,184
    PW:S total healing reported: 2,023,643

    Summary: This comes to an impasse. Further information on why over-healing is reported as high can not be assessed with WMO. With WoL we could proceed to check why the overhealing is so high. Main assumption is over-writing PW:S. As such this log can be viewed as substantially worse than the first one. However, without additional information we can't say that for sure. What we can say is that WMO's assumptions on shield size when modified by over-healing is close to the maximum.

    The point here is this: Even on a fight where absorbs will almost always be consumed there are discrepancies between how absorbs are calculated. WMO credits players for near maximum absorbs at nearly all times. WoL tends to register healing improperly, but a little bit closer in general. However, the problem is a little more complicated then that. The reason is that WoL will always show PW:S as 0% overheal and while it would allow an in depth check to see if 'over-healing' is taking place, it is not reported. WMO on the other hand reports it as over-healing, but does not give you a way to find out how and why the over-healing took place. So even when the meters absolute value is close to being accurate, the parse itself can't be properly analyzed. Since healing meters are useful not for absolute values, but to be analyzed for insight into how the player played this means that neither WoL or WMO is reliable for checking how a Discipline Priest is healing without a great amount of effort in verifying what the log is saying.

    In short: Logs are only useful for Discipline if you already understand the encounters, the errors in the logs and have an understanding of how much shields actually absorb. It's at best guess work.

  19. #39

    Re: Disc HPS on recount.

    Disc Absorbs + Healing on Skada usually should come out ahead of just about any other healer if you're spamming bubbles if only because bubbles can't overheal.

    But if you want a real look at your effective HPS, then I recommend uploading combat logs to www.worldoflogs.com and evaluating that way.

    Damage Meters these days are all extremely lackluster alternatives to online log parsers.
    Recount isn't even worth the obscene amount of memory it takes up. Skada, thankfully, being so much more lightweight is at least pardonable and doesn't do nearly as much as Recount does to inflate DPS numbers to unreasonable levels.

  20. #40

    Re: Disc HPS on recount.

    Harky, I am not sure if you interpreted my comments as saying Holy priests are jealous of disc priests or not, but let me be clear I certainly do not think that is the case. What I know to be the case for me, is that other class healers are excited to heal with me, and the majority of complaints I see come from main specced holy priests. I am not suggesting or drawing any conclusions from that, just stating my experience.

    I understand it is the log that has the problems, my question was more along the lines of: do less absorb mechanics mean more accuracy. From your answer, it seems it doesn't matter because the two unavoidable mechanics (PWS and DA) are still inherently inaccurate in the combat log.

    I should also say, I have never thought healing meters mattered so much. I think the ability of a healer can (and should) be measured without meters.

    I do not play on the bleeding edge of content (far from it) and that means that I am not subject to min-maxing my every decision (gear, gems, cast order, etc.). I try to be the best priest I can (minimizing over healing, synergizing rapture, PIing and PSing the right people at the right time, not wasting PWS...). For those of us who play far from the edge, we have the option of enjoying the game how we want to play it (regardless of HPS).

    I suggest to those worried about the meters: find a group of people you get along with who are informed about what your spec can and cannot effectively do and have some fun.

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