Blizzard is NOT KILLING 25 MANS.

[Bigjay]

I get your points, and I do not think all 25 man guilds will go puff and disappear.

However do you think that 2% more people in the raid getting loot will be enough of an incentive for a 10 man guild to try and become a 25 man guild. Personally at a 3:1 ratio I do not see this happening. So if no new 25 man guilds are formed eventually all the old ones will die out with time, even Ensidia is closing down.

So I don't think their will be a quick death to 25 mans with current assumptions, but I still see a long slow death. That's with current assumptions as I said, so we'll have to see what incentives to 25 man raiding are really given to convince some 10 man guilds to try and grow.

[Requital]

If I see one more person talking about how there's no reason to do 25 mans in cataclysm because more gear doesn't make up for having more players, I am going to throw a fit.

If you READ the patch notes, they say quite explicitly:
"...so while the loot quality will not change, 25-player versions will drop a higher quantity of loot per player (items, but also badges, and even gold)"

For those of you who don't have good reading comprehension, this means that if 10 man raids drop 2 items per boss, 25 man raids WILL drop 6 items per boss. Even if the drops-per-person were equal, this would be:
2 items / 10 people = 1/5 item per person
5 items / 25 people = 1/5 item per person
Blizzard has explicitly stated that 25 mans will drop a higher quantity of loot PER PLAYER, meaning that if 10 man bosses drop 2 items, 25 man bosses will drop AT LEAST 6 (I'm not guessing this, this is the direct consequence of what was stated in the blue post). I find this unlikely, because there would be a huge gear inflation very early in cataclysm if this were the case.

I think it's much more likely that 10 man raids will drop 1 item per boss, and 25 mans will remain at 3 items per boss. This will give the same ratio as I just stated, but with much less gear inflation from the guilds that raid 25 mans.

Another side effect of this is that 1 loot per boss in 10 mans will NOT gear up your 10 man group very fast. The 25 mans are going to be much more worthwhile, because you will A) get more gear, for reasons just stated, and B) have a much lower chance that someone in the raid doesn't need the item, which is entirely possible in 10 mans after the first couple weeks.
If I'm right about this, it will take a significantly longer time to gear up from 10 mans, which will not only be less fun, but will hinder 10 man progression. Yes, the mechanics of 10 man raids are generally easier to organize, but if the difficulty is the same, people raiding 25 mans regularly will have an easier time progressing than 10 man runners.

25 man raids will be considered better for this reason, and I fully expect that the 25 man guild will continue to be the standard; Blizzard is making this change only so that people who focus on 10 man raiding aren't being obliterated in progression by people who have killed a few bosses in 25 man and can steamroll 10 man with higher level loots.

So far, I've only talked about guilds, but I think that the change won't kill 25 man pugs, either. If the only difference in difficulty is in the group assembly, then YES, lots of people will be happy to raid a 25 man to get more loot out of it, especially considering that people will want to make the most of their ONE chance at that raid for the week. There still are significant benefits to raiding 25 mans under this new system, and I think that they will outweigh the annoyances of finding an additional 15 non-scrubs.
Right now, there are a lot of really sucky 25 man groups put together, because people consider the raid lock EXPENDABLE. All this is going to do is make it so that raid leaders are a little more careful when they put their groups together, and I expect the 25 man pug raiding experience to become much more enjoyable as a result.

Your paranoia is annoying and completely unfounded. Stop it.

If 10 man progression is your only goal than you shouldn't worry about what comes from 25 man raiding. That is really all there is to it since you obviously don't comprehend or understand the impact this change will have on 25 man content you should quit posting about it all together. More loot per boss does not mean better in fact completely opposite because of the 6 items that drop generally 3-4 of them are DE or Vendor trash.

People who want to see the entire game through the eyes of 10 man content should see a watered down version 25 man content not the same loot and same itemlevel that alone is an idiotic change that will only increase Blizzards revenue and nothing else as the only thing they care about is income. Anyone who thinks 25 man raiding won't have an impact is sorely mistaken.

[The Madgod]

last post of the morning from me:

If blizzard wanted to kill 25 mans, they'd have simply taken them out. It's their game, and they can do what they want. This current situation clearly shows that blizzard wants to keep 25 mans, and make 10 mans more viable for players.

It's about choice. If you don't think you should do 25 mans, don't do em. If you want to say that blizzard is ruining them, then give some distinct proof, which shows that blizzard and blizzard alone is going to be the culprit, and not the playerbase

[Holyjudge]

Dropped items they seem to be talking about is more badges and gold. I can't see them dropping 6 peices of gear per boss on 25 man. If they do well so be it.

[macke]

Its funny how people still dont realise the reason why people run 10man.

I'm pretty sure atleast 35% of evryone that only run 10's is due to lack of computer power, I can bearly have more then 10 - 15 FPs in 25mans.

While in 10man its usaly around 20 - 35.

[DKDelnada]

Of course it's not killing them. It's bringing them down to 1 health, herp derp.

[jai151]

If 10 man progression is your only goal than you shouldn't worry about what comes from 25 man raiding. That is really all there is to it since you obviously don't comprehend or understand the impact this change will have on 25 man content you should quit posting about it all together. More loot per boss does not mean better in fact completely opposite because of the 6 items that drop generally 3-4 of them are DE or Vendor trash.

People who want to see the entire game through the eyes of 10 man content should see a watered down version 25 man content not the same loot and same itemlevel that alone is an idiotic change that will only increase Blizzards revenue and nothing else as the only thing they care about is income. Anyone who thinks 25 man raiding won't have an impact is sorely mistaken.

If you're working off the idea that 25 mans are going to see reduced participation, then you have to concede that the majority of the playerbase prefers 10 mans. With that concession made, explain to me why the raids that the majority of people WANT to run should be watered down versions of the raids that the majority of people do NOT want to run given that difficulty and incentive will be the same?

[Tokru]

care to explain how, if the raids will be the same difficulty?

I am curious where this sudden confidence in blizzard comes from. If they could equally balance 10 and 25 player versions, why didn't they do it from the beginning on? Naxx (the last time 10s couldn't be outgeared from the start) was not even remotely comparable in 10 and 25 player versions with the apropriate gear (bc-epics + quest blues and first hero-epics).


Blizzard suddenly says that there will be the same difficulty and everyone believes it without questioning? Come on ...

[Prentice]

25 raiding will allways be the place to get "Fame"

This is the main reason why 25 raids will last

Having already stated that raid achievements won't carry the 10-man or 25-man differentiation, achievements have already been leveled. Identical loot will drop in 10man and 25man, just slightly less in 10. They aren't even sure if legendary items will stay as 25man-only items.

Increasing the number of items per boss in 25mans is not promoting 25man raiding. As with every new raid tier, you'll get your loot eventually. Getting that piece of loot a couple weeks earlier is not exciting. Getting an extra 20g for killing the boss is not exciting. Earning extra badges per boss (when you're gonna get capped anyways) is not exciting.

Now tell me... What is the motivation to raid 25mans?? This is your opportunity to enlighten me, a 25man raider, as to why you think in Cataclysm I should deal with the hassle of a group as large as my current one. Don't the benefits sound heavily weighted in favor of 10man raiding to you??

In 10man raiding, you will only need 2 tanks and 2.5 healers. It's a whole lot easier to maintain a raid roster like that than it is to make sure you have 3 tanks available, 5-8 healers available, and an assortment of ranged and melee dps on hand.

[Sveri]

How about all you cats who want 25-man raiding to stay alive get together and make yourself a 25-man guild? Like someone else said before, Blizzard isn't killing 25-man raids, you're killing them yourselves by preferring 10-mans. I, for one, am thankful for this change. I don't have to run the raid two different times on 10/25, I don't have to run with baddies, and I can perform my best because of great fps.

[jai151]

I am curious where this sudden confidence in blizzard comes from. If they could equally balance 10 and 25 player versions, why didn't they do it from the beginning on? Naxx (the last time 10s couldn't be outgeared from the start) was not even remotely comparable in 10 and 25 player versions with the apropriate gear (bc-epics + quest blues and first hero-epics).


Blizzard suddenly says that there will be the same difficulty and everyone believes it without questioning? Come on ...

Why would they have been the same difficulty? Naxx 10 was dropping heroic dungeon level gear, Naxx 25 was dropping 213s. Obviously higher reward should command higher difficulty, they were never designed to be equal.

[AuthurDent]

Take ANY 25 man raid team... could you EASILY pickout the 10 best? The answer is yes. Plain and simple.

In EVERY 25 man raid with the exception of perhaps World Top Guilds there are about 15 really exceptional players (often less).. and the remaining 10 go from "decent" to "you better be glad you offer Heroism or replenishment".

And you are telling me that take the top 10 peeps from THAT 25 man raid.. and they won't out progress the full 25 man team?

Nevermind the miniscule things like all exceptional 10 learning their part in the encounter faster than adequate 25 men does... getting 10 peeps back and ready for next pull being faster, less AFK's due to "Mommy says I gotta take out the trash", etc.

When Cataclysm raiding starts.. noone will give a ratz petootie about the "fame" as someone called it.. of 25 man... there won't be any.

Time abd time again the very arguments used in these threads state that 10 man requires everyone to make less mistakes than in 25... and the egaring will be slower, etc... Hmmm seems to me they are making hte EVRY case as to why it shows higher skill than 25 man.. who cares about more gear, or whether you have someone to carry you if you die... I want to raid where my skill is match by my bretheren.. and I get the maximum quality gear for it...

Just because a hadnful of guidl will be able to actually FIND 25 peeps to commit.. does not make them better raiders or higher skilled than the 10 man peeps... and with the pain-in-the-azz logistics of making 25 man go on time, each week... 10 man will rule supreme.

care to explain how, if the raids will be the same difficulty? If a 10 player raid progresses faster, then it's because the quality of players is increased compared to the 25 player raid. Now this may be true with your scenario, but if they are of equal level, they should advance equally, if not the 25 player raid advancing faster. If they are highly skilled, and their group is coordinated, then they won't have too much more trouble learning the fight. The higher amount of gear dropping will also help with their progression. It's all relative, and because of that relativity, we should try to put some proof behind our claims, else we look like people screaming "I'M RIGHT AND YOU'RE WRONG!"

[Dethh]

More drops/loot in 25 vs. 10

Im a caster (warlock) and in a 10 man raid usually you have 3 ranged 3 melee 2 tanks and 2 healers.
If a caster item drops how many people will I have to roll against? Lets assume for arguments sake one ranged is a hunter one is a mage and one is me the warlock. Now a caster item drops that is specific to damage dealers IE. has spell hit or another stat a healer wouldnt want. I have to roll basically against the mage and thats it. Sounds good to me 50/50 chance for me to get my purps. In a 25 man even though there will be more drops you wont get 2 trinkets or 2 offhands etc. So IMO you actually have a better chance on most items in a 10 man. Also in the 25 there will be more casters rolling on the item as weeks pass by till everyone has it. In 10 man scenario at least in my 10 mans we always run the same people same 10 players so we have good experience raiding together. I cant see even with the "more items" from each boss dropping how you will get geared faster in 25. RNG is RNG but still odds are odds and rolling against 5 casters isnt as good as rolling against 1 when multiple trinkets/boots etc dont drop from one boss kill.

[Voij]

Its funny how people still dont realise the reason why people run 10man.

I'm pretty sure atleast 35% of evryone that only run 10's is due to lack of computer power, I can bearly have more then 10 - 15 FPs in 25mans.

While in 10man its usaly around 20 - 35.

The irony, it burns!

[jai151]

Now tell me... What is the motivation to raid 25mans?? This is your opportunity to enlighten me, a 25man raider, as to why you think in Cataclysm I should deal with the hassle of a group as large as my current one. Don't the benefits sound heavily weighted in favor of 10man raiding to you??

The motivation to raid 25 mans comes from the player wanting to raid 25 mans. If you need motivation, then you didn't really want to raid 25 mans in the first place and should be welcoming this change. What exactly are you fighting for?

[Requital]

If you're working off the idea that 25 mans are going to see reduced participation, then you have to concede that the majority of the playerbase prefers 10 mans. With that concession made, explain to me why the raids that the majority of people WANT to run should be watered down versions of the raids that the majority of people do NOT want to run given that difficulty and incentive will be the same?

From an income point of view I can't there is no one that can it's a very smart business model on Blizzards part.

From my point of view I wish we had attunements in the game still to keep bad players where they should be in 5 mans and Kharazan. From a raiders point of view who enjoys the game for the 25 man content I'm an elitist prick and proud to be honestly I could care less what all the casual players who can't raid want there are other games for them.

[AuthurDent]

Because they can see that the 25 mans are gonna go by the wayside... and that if they are one of the 10 peeps in that 25 man raid that are carried... it ain't gonna happen no more...

That's why I think 25 man will be the new "pug" size.. because it's more suited to pugging.. "easier" by the 25 man defender's arguments, more loot for casuals, more forgiving.

10 mans will be the new measure of skill.

The motivation to raid 25 mans comes from the player wanting to raid 25 mans. If you need motivation, then you didn't really want to raid 25 mans in the first place and should be welcoming this change. What exactly are you fighting for?

[jai151]

From an income point of view I can't there is no one that can it's a very smart business model on Blizzards part.

From my point of view I wish we had attunements in the game still to keep bad players where they should be in 5 mans and Kharazan. From a raiders point of view who enjoys the game for the 25 man content I'm an elitist prick and proud to be honestly I could care less what all the casual players who can't raid want there are other games for them.

Forget income, forget casuals. If 25 mans die, it's because there aren't enough people in this game, casual, hardcore, Horde, Alliance, blue, purple, pink, or otherwise, who actually want to run them.

[Isah]

I kinda like the fact, both 10 and 25s are going to be at a similar level of difficulty.

I have found when you don't over-gear an instance, 10 mans can be significantly less forgiving to somebody dying compared to 25 mans.

Once you over gear a 10 man, you can take one or two slackers, however what you may have found is that the really good raiders in your guild, progressing 25 man raids, had killed LK weeks ago on 10 man and have switched to hard modes, but they did it with a carefully selected group from the 25 man raid pool.

If Blizz stick to their intention of making 10 mans as hard as 25 mans, then 25 mans will be far more forgiving (think 3-4 druids in a raid for CR), than the 10 man (1-2 druids). So I can see raid leaders, given the option of putting 2 10 mans together or one 25 man, gunning for the 25 man IF they have the available raid pool.

TBH, ideally, you would have a raid lockout on a per boss basis. So if you joined a raid and got to boss X, if another raid group was at boss X later in the week, you could join that raid, either in 10 or 25. From a 'story line' point of view, you would only have killed that boss once during the week.

The raid lockout as it stands needs to be more granular on a per boss basis.

It would make for a far more interesting raiding environment. Current mechanics do not allow this which is a shame.

[Requital]

Forget income, forget casuals. If 25 mans die, it's because there aren't enough people in this game, casual, hardcore, Horde, Alliance, blue, purple, pink, or otherwise, who actually want to run them.

That is your opinion I see it differently.