Sindragosa

[Sesshou]

So it sounds like mindscramble has absolutely no idea how rogue dps works (actually he obviously doesnt from his gems), he just simply manages to out play you two. Imitating him when he doesn't even know what he is doing isn't going to help. What you need to do is find out what is wrong with how you are actually playing and not look at your gear set up since it seems pretty clear that mindscramble is out playing the other rogues on the actual encounters by so much that with inferior gear and no idea what stats he should want, he does more dps.

Are you using the right poisons? Are you keeping a near 100% uptime on SnD? Are you using your cd's properly? Are you tricks swapping?

Honestly with the 10% buff, all 3 of you have enough gear to break 10k on saurfang 25.

[Sahand]

Mindscramble (like my rogue) is an alt, mains are on Sindragosa where Morpheous is the active rogue. Before the last icc buff increase, my rouge would put out 7400 dps on Saurfang with a wow heroes score of 2900, Moph would put out more with the highest GS and Mindscrable would eclipse us all with a GS between the 2 of us.

So I started looking into programs to suggest better set-ups while Morpheous followed the higher dps rogue.

I think it will be a while until any of us get it down, so here I am.

ive actually cringed so hard my assholes closed up. thanks.

[Pastor]

So it sounds like mindscramble has absolutely no idea how rogue dps works (actually he obviously doesnt from his gems), he just simply manages to out play you two. Imitating him when he doesn't even know what he is doing isn't going to help. What you need to do is find out what is wrong with how you are actually playing and not look at your gear set up since it seems pretty clear that mindscramble is out playing the other rogues on the actual encounters by so much that with inferior gear and no idea what stats he should want, he does more dps.

Are you using the right poisons? Are you keeping a near 100% uptime on SnD? Are you using your cd's properly? Are you tricks swapping?

Honestly with the 10% buff, all 3 of you have enough gear to break 10k on saurfang 25.

I will try the spreadsheets suggested rotation (no rupture),
I always use:
instant main, Deadly off
SnD is always up, cooldowns stacked when possible, tricks is used on the appropriate tank as opposed to another rogue unless fester or some other un-pullable boss is the target.

After the reset I will see what kind of results I get in saurfang as that is the only way I get an accurate comparison to prior runs (although the xtra 5% will skew the numbers a little bit in my favor)

[Taalyn]

Every boss should except Lady Deathwhisper should be un-pullable if your tanks are good.

Tricks the tank before the pull and then have another rogue swap tricks with you. If your tanks aren't terrible you wont pull threat.

[Sesshou]

The whole point in tricks swapping is that neither of you really gain threat. Still though, with the numbers you say you are pulling, there is something going on other than gem choices since you guys should be over 10k.

Now Moph's dps is likely bad because he is loosing a retarded amount of dps by using a 1.8 speed offhand. He is loosing out on a lot of combat potency and poison procs by doing that, and would be better off with a lower ilvl fast dagger. Where as the mind has proper speed weapons.

Also there is no way a no rupture is better for you with your amount of arp. You probably need to force Aldriana's sheet to activate the t8 4pc bonus as by default the sheet doesnt let rupture crit. To use rupture though you need to glyph and spec it.

Also you said above that Moph has the highest GS, but I can guarantee you that mind scrambles gear is actually much, much better. Of course it isn't gemmed right...

[Taalyn]

If you don't know how to force the 4p T8 go to the Calcs page (if you don't know how to do that, right click the Equipment tab at the bottom of the equipment page and go to Unhide and choose Clacs, or go to Formula -> Sheet -> Unhide) and find where the calculations row is for 4p T8 (not hard to find and it is relatively close to the top) and double click the first cell that has a 0 and delete everything in that box and type in 1.

[Pastor]

does it matter that I am not wearing 4pc T8?

What glyph would I swap out?

the spreadsheet, as it stands now, suggests the no-rupture rotation. With the changes you propose what rotation would I fall into?

Eviscerate Only
The Eviscerate Only cycle indicates that with the gear and spec you have entered, the optimal cycle uses only Slice and Dice and Eviscerate – no Ruptures.
In general, this cycle consists of 5pt Eviscerates alternating with Slice and Dice as needed. Slice and Dice is refreshed with 5 combo points if you can pool
within n seconds of SnD dropping; otherwise, it is refreshed with whatever combo points you have as the previous Slice and Dice is dropping.

n 3.1

Low-Rupture
Low Rupture is a 3 finisher cycle – SnD, Evis, and Rupture – which prioritizes efficient combo point usage. In practice, this is functionally identical to
Eviscerate Only, except that instead of Eviscerating whenever you have 5 CP and don't need to refresh SnD, you Rupture if it's down and Eviscerate otherwise.
All timings in terms of Slice and Dice are identical.

High Rupture
High Rupture is a 3 finisher in cycle, though in practice you will very seldom use Eviscerate. The priority of this cycle is 100% SnD uptime and maximal
rupture uptime, Eviscerating only as much as is possible without compromising these goals. This is generally done by performing a small (usually 3-4 point)
SnD, then building combo points until there are m seconds left on the previous Rupture, performing an Eviscerate if one has at least 2 combo points, and then
building 5 combo points for the next Rupture. In conventional cycle notation, this would be something like 3s[2+e]5r. Note that the Slice and Dice will frequently
be refreshed with a number of seconds remaining; it is absolutely essential that the SnD be large enough to last until the next one can be performed, with a rupture
in between. Thus, one must err on the side of having it be a bit too big, rather than exactly the right length to avoid wasting uptime.

Recommended SnD Size 3.2
m 9.1
Estimated Rupture Uptime 87%

[Taalyn]

It doesn't matter that you aren't wearing 4p T8. 4p T8 gave Rupture the ability to crit. In the most recent patch they made that baseline, so you "force" 4p T8 to account for this change in the spreadsheet.

You'll want to do a few other things:

1) Make sure you have Improved Eviscerate filled out and use the Eviscerate Glyph, SS glyph, and KS glyph. Now note your theoretical DPS.

2) Move 2 points from Improved Eviscerate into Blood Spatter and put the third in Ruthlessness. Change your glyphs to Rupture, Tricks of the Trade, and Killing Spree. Now note your theoretical DPS.

Number 1 should tell you to do either an Eviscerate Only or a Low Rupture cycle. Number 2 should tell you to do a High Rupture cycle.

IMO, these are the two proper setups for either cycle. I'm not saying they are 100% THE best but I find the general population uses these setups.

Number 2 will usually come out ahead, however Number 1 will usually perform better on fights with adds and/or burn phases.

In the case of the Rupture rotation; I usually do a 4s/5r rotation, spending 4 points on SnD and then 5 on a Rupture. I usually never use Eviscerate unless Adrenaline Rush is active. Sometimes I have to pool energy to wait for Rupture to fall and sometimes I have to Sinister Strike to avoid energy capping and waste a CP. I found it easier to do that than work in 2 point Eviscerates or something else. It usually only happens from excessive Combat Potency procs.
Of course, fiddle with gems for both setups. Even with the Rupture setup, ArP gems can still be the best idea but not always. Likewise Eviscerate setups are not always best with ArP gems.

[Pastor]

changing the calc did indeed result in low rupture rotation

[K4ge]

Those glyphs are bollocks, never ever drop sinister strike

[Sesshou]

1) Make sure you have Improved Eviscerate filled out and use the Eviscerate Glyph, SS glyph, and KS glyph. Now note your theoretical DPS.

2) Move 2 points from Improved Eviscerate into Blood Spatter and put the third in Ruthlessness. Change your glyphs to Rupture, Tricks of the Trade, and Killing Spree. Now note your theoretical DPS.

Thats hardly a fair comparison. You should be using the tricks glyph for both specs. In 1) the tricks glyph should replace the evis glyph.

[Taalyn]

Those glyphs are bollocks, never ever drop sinister strike

SS glyph is unpredictable and, imo, bad for a Rupture spec. You can get procs at bad times and end up wasting multiple CPs from SS to avoid energy capping, or Tricks will come off CD and you have 5 CPs and Rupture hasn't finished. It's fine for stuff like Sindragosa or BQL where you could just Feint to "waste" energy but I found way too many problems with the SS glyph for a Rupture a spec.

Never tried replacing Evisc with ToT. Sesshou, do you know the general rDPS gain of the ToTT glyph?

[Sesshou]

SS glyph is unpredictable and, imo, bad for a Rupture spec. You can get procs at bad times and end up wasting multiple CPs from SS to avoid energy capping, or Tricks will come off CD and you have 5 CPs and Rupture hasn't finished. It's fine for stuff like Sindragosa or BQL where you could just Feint to "waste" energy but I found way too many problems with the SS glyph for a Rupture a spec.

Never tried replacing Evisc with ToT. Sesshou, do you know the general rDPS gain of the ToTT glyph?

Tricks glyph if tricks is used on CD is 2% dps average (total amount for tricks is then 5% average). Considering you should be tricksing some one around your own dps, this should come out way ahead of the evis glyph.

[K4ge]

SS glyph is unpredictable and, imo, bad for a Rupture spec. You can get procs at bad times and end up wasting multiple CPs from SS to avoid energy capping, or Tricks will come off CD and you have 5 CPs and Rupture hasn't finished. It's fine for stuff like Sindragosa or BQL where you could just Feint to "waste" energy but I found way too many problems with the SS glyph for a Rupture a spec.

Never tried replacing Evisc with ToT. Sesshou, do you know the general rDPS gain of the ToTT glyph?

Doesn't matter, ss is still the way higher dps glyph

[Taalyn]

I've seen many high end rogues with various combinations of glyphs. Obviously I don't have their gear level or play as well as they do or know why they have the specs/glyphs they have. One might be for a single specific fight.

Aldriana for example has The Eviscerate glpyh instead of Rupture glyph in the Rupture spec. No clue why but there's probably a good reason.

Surlybeve has ToT, KS, and SS for both setups.

Other rogues with everything but LK 25H dead have other combos, some with Rupture and no Evisc, and some with ToT and no SS.

I like the cycle stability of not using SS for a Rupture setup. I'll carry some SS glyphs and Evisc glyphs in my next raid and see what happens on Saurfang and Fester.

[K4ge]

On a purely mathematical level, ks, tricks and ss will outperform any other glyph combo

and just skimming through the 12/12 hm guilds, all the combat rogues have at LEAST one combat setup with glyphed ss

[Taalyn]

As do I, my Eviscerate spec. I don't like it for Rupture because of the unstable cycle. That might just mean I need more practice knowing when I can Eviscerate with 2 or 3 CPs and still get a 5 CP Rupture right before it falls off.

[K4ge]

the point is actually, that you shouldn't do the 2-3 cp evi. Just go to 5 combo points and if you're rupture uptime suffers it's still higher dps; that's what a "low rupture cycle" is.
What you are trying to do is a max rupture cycle in an environment that isn't beneficial to it

[Taalyn]

I have no clue what you're talking about.

I have two specs, Eviscerate only and High Rupture.

High Rupture is where I don't use SS glyph because I like the cycle stability.

[Pastor]

I was originally opposed to the idea of Blizz getting rid of some of the variety of stats (like armor pen and Def) but seeing the confusion and differing schools of thought makes me think that it might turn out to be a good change.

A conversation about one raid boss has led to a rather good discussion on specs and rotations. I know there is more than one way to skin a cat, and so it should be, but to have such drastic differences in output doesn't reflect well on the system in place.


When the test server comes back on line we may have to form up some groups and do some real world testing.