DW frost spec ftw?

[Krystana]

I made something for you <3

Hehe, lots of simming and hard work put into that.

Actually, 277 tier gloves are better, and 277 might of blight instead of skeleton lords circle

[Revollution]

i have a 5700gs dw frost dk i love it, i use unholy for aoe trash if anything, but my major issue with dw frost is threat, i generate so much threat im always having to slow down dps, they should add a threat dump and or some threar reducing modifer into the dw talents in frost tree.

[BoxofRox]

Actually, 277 tier gloves are better, and 277 might of blight instead of skeleton lords circle

I thought about the 277 gloves, but might of blight I can't agree on. For DW Frost expertise and hit cap are very necessary, missing can fuck your DPS completely, which is why the skeleton circle is used.

[Hellnas]

i have a 5700gs dw frost dk i love it, i use unholy for aoe trash if anything, but my major issue with dw frost is threat, i generate so much threat im always having to slow down dps, they should add a threat dump and or some threar reducing modifer into the dw talents in frost tree.

Ask for Vigilance and/or Blessing of Salvation. Done.

[Mosberg]

hey hey, im currently nearing 5.9 gs as an unholy dk, heres my armory:

http://www.wowarmory.com/character-s...g&cn=Breekachu

I've heard rumors of DKs doing insane DPS after switching to a DW frost setup. For instance, I've heard a 5.5gs DW dk doing 10k+ dps on 25man saurfang (I can only push 9k with 400 more gs), and a 6.1gs DW dk doing upwards of 14k on fights with little movement. My rotation is solid and I time my gargoyle correctly etc. My question is weather or not you guys have seen DW frost dks doing exceptional DPS for their gear or not. I'd rather not waste my rolls on one-handers when i could be going for the 2h byntroll, if it happens that unholy is still top dps. Thanks

Just so you know, Im a 5.6k GS and I constantly break 10k DPS on 25 man saurfang, no problem. So Im gonna say that yes, you may need to look into either your rotation or CD timing as why you may be doing so "poorly". It may even be raid comp, but I would like to think most things are there being a 25man raid. And I only post my GS as proof that skill > GS because I hate that shit (thanks http://wtfismygearscore.com/ i guess)


http://www.wowarmory.com/character-s...ers&cn=Mosberg

[Kenjji]

This thread contains too much GS

[Krystana]

I thought about the 277 gloves, but might of blight I can't agree on. For DW Frost expertise and hit cap are very necessary, missing can fuck your DPS completely, which is why the skeleton circle is used.

Was going by RobotSim with my BiS listings, probablly points me in that direction since im exp capped with BQL's neck like.

[BoxofRox]

Was going by RobotSim with my BiS listings, probablly points me in that direction since im exp capped with BQL's neck like.

You have the emblem cloak with expertise, That's why you're capped. When you get to hardmodes and stuff, my list is much much more complete.

[Maledictis]

I registed with this website specifically to answer this question and try to steer it back on topic. The OP has some extremely valid questions about switching to Frost from Unholy, and deserves a thorough answer. I apologize in advance for the length. I'm old and long-winded.

I've been playing Frost DW DPS on my DK since it was introduced as a viable DPS option a few patches ago. I don't consider myself a hardcore raider. I'm deep into ICC 10 (Sindragosa currently) but only run ICC 25 once a week (on my shaman, not even my DK). I do consider myself a pretty hardcore DK, however, because I consistently push very good numbers. In mostly T9-equivalent gear, I have, on occasion, out-dpsed unholy and blood DKs in full T10 + ICC 10 gear. Does that mean you should spec Frost DW? Not necessarily. (All the GS hatewhiners would love for me to mention that gear does not equal skill here, and it's true. In those cases, it's likely those players weren't fully exploiting their gear's potential). I have reached my understanding of the power of Frost DW through hours of practice on target dummies, and relentless exploration of talent and glyph combinations. (I once spent 800g in a single week respeccing and testing, because I'm a huge dork about this). I only respec now to test occasional alternate setups, usually when I get an upgrade, but I have been coming back to the same talent and glyph combination that I landed at many months ago.

(If you Armory me, you'll see that most of the time I'm in my tanking gear. Sorry about that.) You can see my DPS talent spec, though, which is a bit different than most Frost DW DKs out there. I'll explain why in a bit.

The thing is, I've found that pushing big numbers on a DK is hard. Really hard. At least for me. Maybe I'm dumb. But I've found that I needed to use two of my favorite mods (NeedToKnow and TellMeWhen) to constantly put up bars and icons telling me when my disease were up, and when things like Freezing Fog (which is the buff that procs from the Rime talent) and Killing machine procced. DK DPS is unforgiving and cruel, especially when you make a mistake. (Blizzard recognizes this, actually, and they're changing DKs in Cata to make them easier to play.)

A few bits of advice, apologies in advance if you know all this already:

- The hit cap for DW on special abilities is misleadingly low. With Nerves Of Cold Steel, your hit cap on special abilities is only 5%. However...the more hit you have, the more your white damage hits, and that can help your dps. I'm not saying gear for 27% hit rating or anything, but I have ~10% hit (not by choice, it's just the gear I've gotten so far) and it's nice. If you have extra hit, it can only help.

- Expertise cap is essential, but I don't know a single good melee player who doesn't have at least 26 expertise.

- I use NeedToKnow and TellMeWhen to set up custom bars and icon warnings for all of the various procs. I use NTK to track my diseases, Freezing Fog and Killing Machine. That way I know when, for instance, Rime and KM have procced and I can slam Howling Blast for a free, 100% crit. This was a breakthrough for me. Now that I know what's proccing (including things like trinkets and my sigil), I can make more intelligent decisions in the heat of combat. Put all this stuff in your field of vision so you don't have to look to the edge of the screen to see if, say, Horn of Winter is down (or you're not in range of a SoE totem).

- Learn when to ease off and when to push. You can screw up your rotation in huge ways (which means you can runelock yourself for 6-8 seconds) if you don't pay attention. I.e. if I hit one too many OBs before my diseases tick off, I am runelocked and can't refresh them. This takes practice.

My talent spec is a bit different than most Frost DKs I've seen. I'm specced the way they spec, and I don't see the same numbers. I suspect that if I specced sub blood all the way to BCB I would see big numbers if I had more ArPen, but with my current gear, my sub blood is superior. I don't use Glyph of Disease...a lot of folks do. I find that I like using Icy Touch and Plague Strike to reapply diseases, namely because they DO DAMAGE. Pestilence does not. I'm done gearing up my tank spec (from frost emblems), so I'm buying T10 for my dps set slowly but surely. As I gear up, I may switch my talents a bit, but for now, I am happy with my performance. You may find Glyph of Disease helps. I can't seem to make it work as well for me.

A few folks have said, "play what you enjoy." I wholeheartedly echo that sentiment. Case in point: My tank spec is Frost 2 Hand. Yeah, you read that right. Frost...with a big ol' two hander. I get whispers from people who say things like, "lol why not blood?" There is a rampant misconception on my server, particularly, that blood tanks are the only ones that can reliably progress through ICC. I've spent hours trying to tank as blood and I don't like it. Period. Some people express confusion and thinly veiled contempt when they inspect me and question my talent choices, but those who I tank for don't.

I used to be a Frost DW tank, with fast, avoidance-laden tanking weapons, which also invited ridicule, again, based on the misconception that DKs needed to use DPS weapons to put out enough threat. I put out huge threat ~and~ enjoyed wonderful avoidance. But I got Ramaladni's Blade switched to see if Frost 2H was viable. It is. It's awesome. It allowed me to spec into Improved Icy Talons, which buffs my entire group with something only frost Dks and enhancement shamans can provide. Switching to that two hander increased my threat and my health pool, at the cost of a bit of avoidance. But this isn't about tanking. I bring this up only to reinforce my fervently held belief that people only achieve greatness in this game by experimenting, analyzing their experiences, and sticking with what works. I've read every major DK guide there is. Most of them have great theoretical advice, but some of it will not apply to you, the gear you currently have, or your play style. (A lot of those guides are written with the assumption that you have access to heroic raiding gear. The overwhelming majority of us do not.) Beyond gear, talents, glyphs, mods, and rotations, seemingly minor things like your latency, framerate, your physical response time (i.e. how fast your hands click keys and move the mouse) contribute significantly to in-game performance, and cannot be accounted for in a guide or a dps sim.

I highly recommend the Team WoW Robot Simulator for gauging the theoretical top end of your gear, and for evaluating upgrades. Rawr from Elitist Jerks (which is now browser-based) is also a first-rate dps sim. Take these with a huge grain of salt, though - they are simulators, and sometimes the math they use is a little off. Sometimes items aren't properly calculated, because these unpaid, overworked dudes who make these things don't always get it right the first time. The robot sim, for instance, tells me my shaman should be doing 10000 dps in raids, and the most I've ever done was 9500. By contrast, it tells me that my Frost DK setup should do about 8500 and there are times I push 9k on single target fights in 10 mans. In 25s I've done 10k on Festergut. My gear is almost an entire tier lower than yours.

Lastly, to the people who have tried to turn this thread into a GS hate session - just stop. Go start another topic and complain there.

OP, I hope this helps. Let me know if you have any specific questions.

[Hellnas]

Ther are some points I want clarification on and some points I want to question:

- Expertise cap is essential, but I don't know a single good melee player who doesn't have at least 26 expertise.

You are not making a distinction of Frost Dk and Unholy DK in this matter, its not clear if you talk about DKs overall in the beginning of the post and later on switching to a Frost PoV.
But as Unholy expertise cap is not needed to reach due to the amount of empty GCDs in the rotation.

DK DPS is unforgiving and cruel, especially when you make a mistake

Again, no distinction between Frost or Unholy.

I don't use Glyph of Disease...a lot of folks do. I find that I like using Icy Touch and Plague Strike to reapply diseases, namely because they DO DAMAGE. Pestilence does not

I do use this set of glyphs also, but that is because my mindset is set in stone as unholy, forcing me to reapply the diseases with IT-PS. A matter of preference I guess.

Last I question your specc. I can understand that you take some talents into Subversion to reduce the threat generated. But that is all I can figure and agree with in this matter. BCB in unholy tree is really really good for you and is (according to EJ) one of the biggest dps increases you can get as frost. So in order to get less threat, passive RP regen and Bladed Armor you miss 3% pure strength from Ravenous Dead, necrosis and BCB. I'm not judging you, just pointing out some things that made me wonder.

My armory: http://eu.wowarmory.com/character-sh...targ&cn=Athelm
Simulated dps at askmrrobot.com in current gear and specc: 10643 dps.
Simulated dps in your specc with my gear: 10237 dps.

Giving us a diffrence of: 406 dps.

Note that my expertise is waaaay over the cap due to I recently got the t10 legs and is very unwilling to gem expertise when I get so much from just gear.

[Mykk]

First of all get expertise cap also get better trinket than that 128 hit rating. After u have done those get 294 dps weapon or better. Also tuskarrs vitality on boots etc.

U dont deserve to do better dps if u dont know which chants or caps u need.

[Art3x]

The expertise cap for Frost DK is only 21 vs 26 for most every other class. Not sure if someone has said that yet or not.

[Maledictis]

Hellnas said:

Again, no distinction between Frost or Unholy.

I'm only talking about Frost here. The OP didn't ask for Unholy advice, so why would I give it?

Regarding your questions about my spec...I'm used to people saying this. And you're right - according to EJ, I "shouldn't" spec the way I do, because, according to them, going unholy sub as opposed to blood sub is "better". But, from my direct experience, with dozens of dps meters from 10 and 25 man raids, in which I have switched back and forth between the two, I've found that, for ME, the current spec I have gives me consistently higher numbers.

It's hilarious that you post a bunch of numbers from sims as a way of proving your point. You're either unwilling, or unable, to listen to the crux of my advice, which is for the OP to try things out, gather data on his or her own performance, and then make an assessment. As I mentioned, I regularly EXCEED the numbers that Team Robot tells me I "should" do with my spec. Those sims are great for ballpark numbers, but they aren't perfect. I plugged my own gear into Team Robot with my spec and your spec and guess what? Your spec, according to Team Robot, is "better" for me, but as I stated before, my real world experience consistently tells me otherwise. The only way to decisively resolve this would be to have you play my character, and me play yours, and see if there was a difference.

You get better numbers from sub unholy? Terrific. Spec that way. I get better numbers my way. It may be a difference in our gear (a cursory glance at your gear tells me you have a lot more ArPen than I do, which MAY explain why you get better numbers from BCB) or a difference in how we hit the buttons. When I get more ArPen on my gear (from T10, mostly) I'll try speccing into BCB to see if it finally pushes better numbers than speccing into Bladed Armor.

Also, I don't take Subversion for the threat reduction. I take it because I need to put 3 points somewhere to get Bladed Armor, and because it gives a massive crit boost to my Obliterates. Analysis of my meters from raids, heroics, and target dummies (taking into account variations in applicable buffs) showed that Bladed Armor was better for ME.

[Caean]

do what you like but I have never heard an arp argument for sub spec'ing into unholy.

Most likely what is happening is you play your rotation a certain way that differs from the rotation people use when sims are used to show that sub spec'ing into unholy is better.

If your experience were a general rule rather than how you mash buttons in particular, there would be more discussion of sub spec'ing into blood for frost dw.

Personally, if I were in that situation, I would want to modify how I play to match what should be the best dps output, because the numbers aren't pulled out of thin air.

But, if you're doing what you like, go nuts, it's a game.

[Hellnas]

To Maledictis:

No need to take an offensive standing or look down at what I wrote. I mentioned in my first post that I wondered things about what you meant and you gave answers now. Discussion must be held with respect for one and anothers opinion and such. Thank you for your time clearing things up.

[Gaexion Ramza Beoulve]

Gs is the most important piece of information in the game as it shows what level of raid content their gear is suited for. It also provides a bare minimum of performance that should be expected from that person. Therefore it works in tandem with a person's skill level to show you exactly what kind of player they are. Two equally awesome players with the exact same gear, but different weapons will yield totally different results.

Gs is always relevant but is not an absolute, yet the shunning of GS as being relevant proves absolute ignorance.

[Twistedrunes]

DPS meters in ICC don't really count right now due to the 15% damage buff. so if your pulling 10k your really only doing like 8.5k. which really isn't bad but not as good as you thought.

I've tried to play unholy once or twice and i absolutely hated it, same thing with blood you just spam heart strike as much as possible. I like frost because you actually have to pay attention to your procs, runes, disease timers etc. yes it's alot easier to make a mistake in, but so much more fun

[Tyrionlol]

Can only speak for myself here but I'm a switcher and now I play a frost dk "KM PROCC, MAYBE I SHOULD JUST FROST STRIKE!!!".
+ I enjoy it a whole lot more which makes the game more fun
+ I've increased my dps on some fights (but lost some on others)
+ I boost melee with 20% haste which in 10 man in valueable
+ My rotation has more room for error, in unholy 1 missed spell can mean everything for your dps while in frost you have a few sec over to fix the wrong
- My aoe dps sufferd a 50% loss
- No 13% increase magic dmg debuff

I haven't socketed the right things yet tho so I can say for sure that it's better pure statwise but since I find it more fun I'll keep on kicking for a while!.

[freezion]

Switch to Frost and enjoy moar pewpewz. I know, GS is not a big deal, but I outdps a 6,2k GS Unholy DK in my guild (see my armory below) on Saurfang 25m hardmode and trust me, he does know how to play. I do not really think, that Frost is hard to play, after 15 minutes of bossfight you shouldn't do any mistakes

Frost is harder then unholy and blood because you have more attacks you need to use, you need to keep en eye on procs, and its not very forgiving if you fuck your rotation up compared to unholy or blood.
frost is simply the specc that requires most skill

[Ericdaroude]

Frost is harder then unholy and blood because you have more attacks you need to use, you need to keep en eye on procs, and its not very forgiving if you fuck your rotation up compared to unholy or blood.
frost is simply the specc that requires most skill

but frost results in the most damage...and the most threat. Pulled aggro off our MT on festergut 25m hardmode... :