Shadowpriests, raid utility and Cataclysm

[Kelesti]

Last time I checked 30% damage reduction was slightly less than 90% (and have fun trying to feint, shield wall or pally shield wall while stunned, although that's more of a pvp bonus). Plus the 15% that we have passively.

And because of raid buff homogenization, arguing that fort (which (improved) is unique to priests in general, btw) doesn't count is essentially the same as saying misery doesn't count, since boomkins bring it too.

Improved Fortitude will no longer exist, because it's a talent that "buffs a buff". Fortitude will be brought by Priests of any spec, with a weaker version from Scribes. Who knows, we may even see additional classes with it. But it's not a Shadow buff, and it doesn't increase the damage anyone does, just by having it on (unless you're... like... Survival). 99.8% of the time, better playing and to a lesser extent, better gear, pans out much more than "needing" this buff.

and if i read correctly, the removal of misery is what you were crying about originally.

I wasn't crying. I was pointing out that non-Discipline Priests have been shafted for raid-buffs since the game launched. Vanilla, Priests were "DS" spec'd. TBC, you had to go 23 points into Discipline to get Improved DS, and miss out on 5/5 Empowered, plus Circle. In Wrath, Shadow brings a hit buff that people hate relying on (incase said priest doesn't show up, everyone's gearing around it is screwed). It also brings the most present buff in the game: Replenishment. Increased Health? Meh. Discipline had the shittiest spellpower buff, through the horrible Improved Divine Spirit that was beat out by a totem, but Divine Spirit was the best source of Spirit, regardless of improved or not. Discipline also brought 3% less damage taken.

Holy: Uhh.... Yeah. Still nothing specific to the Spec that is actually viewed as "good".
Shadow was in fear of falling into that slump. Spell Haste fixes that, in it's a desirable buff to those around you, to yourself as well, and people without it will have their DPS drop, but not be viewed as useless. It's a great place for Shadow. Holy's still screwed though. :P

[Kelesti]

you couldnt "be asleep" for a few hours so we can find out some of the info?

I mod from an iTouch until I get my new PC in later this week. Plus, given that June incurs both an anniversary, as well as the s/o's birthday, I've been out of touch lately. The fact that I'm here to "catch" something is not my problem. :P

[fabian]

VE gets more powerful as your damage goes up, but who’s to say your damage goes up as much as it did this expansion (having gear inflation from extra ilvls certainly didn’t help). While Vampiric Embrace is STRONG on yourself, it is quite WEAK on the people it affects now. Healing Stream takes that extra healing piled onto yourself, and would spread it around equally between the 5. It’s quite a nice HoT as it stands, currently.

With healing being more about keeping people alive than keeping them topped up, VE will be quite powerful even though it heals for less than healing stream. The only limitation right now is that it only heals the party.

[Purple]

- In Cata, people get banned for posting leaked info violating an NDA -- Kelesti

Strangest Shadow Priest Update. How exactly will the ban spell be implemented for Shadow Priests while only allowing them to ban people leaking information in Cata? Shadow Word: Ban sounds like a great ability, but I fear it will end up confined to overly specific circumstances.

- Potential 5% haste buff

I have mixed feelings about this. I'd have been fine with something they took away (we used to bring +shadow damage). I'd have also been happy with currently DK only 30% disease deal. We're the only other class at the moment that brings diseases.. so in the interest of bringing the player and not the class.. I'd have been okay with this.

- Improved VE as a valuable talent that only gets more powerful as the priest does.

Its effect on the group is minimal, you really only have major effect on yourself (and what effect it does bring has seen a nerf every single expansion so far).

- High Damage for Low Threat. (I guess)

We're losing the threat reduction from shadowform, and high damage is debatable. Even if you consider Shadow Priests high right now, there's no guarantee Blizzard will keep them where they're at in Cata.

Keep in mind that because of Dispersion, we can take more punishment. I know that currently, my guild is working on Heroic Putricide, and the raid is always more willing to pass the disease off to me because I can take about 6 extra seconds if I set it up properly.

Six seconds of 90% damage reduction to things that, in more than enough cases, actually ignore your 90% damage reduction due to.. Because Blizzard Said So. It's fine that they said so, it doesn't do anything to change that some damage ignores Dispersion's damage reduction.

When the Warlock next to you has no trouble keeping himself alive, does the same damage as you, but brings buffs to the other casters’ DPS, through raid buffs? That’s what is being declared as “useful”. Shadow isn’t asking to do more damage, they just don’t want to be sidelined for a Pure or another hybrid, just because they bring “nothing” to actually contribute, in a damage sense.

Seems accurate.

There's some info I wish they'd release officially.. I really need to vent..

[Kelesti]

With healing being more about keeping people alive than keeping them topped up, VE will be quite powerful even though it heals for less than healing stream. The only limitation right now is that it only heals the party.

They both are limited to party, as is Holy Nova. I'm interested to see how that's changed.

Strangest Shadow Priest Update. How exactly will the ban spell be implemented for Shadow Priests while only allowing them to ban people leaking information in Cata? Shadow Word: Ban sounds like a great ability, but I fear it will end up confined to overly specific circumstances.

I love you?

There's some info I wish they'd release officially.. I really need to vent..

So say we all.

[fabian]

They both are limited to party, as is Holy Nova. I'm interested to see how that's changed.

From the fact that being topped off is of little importance and how tranquility became a raid wide spell, they might actually make everything that is currently party only affect the entire raid. If they do change VE to be raid wide, we might see another nerf in the coefficient of the healing.

[Kelesti]

Hooray for 25% self healing, and 1% raid healing?

[Abandon]

Well, hopefully they will make it more of a smart effect, healing the Priest and the 4 lowest health members of the raid instead of being limited to your party. That would mean they could keep the amount that it heals the same without being overpowered or useless.

[Dreamtail]

I mod from an iTouch until I get my new PC in later this week.

while i might not know what an iTouch is exactly i figure its some kind of portable thing like an ipod or ipad or iphone or some shit like that you can use the net on
my point was you have to sleep at some point and the 5% spell buff in my opinion is not enough when compared to the other hybrid casters buffs

[fabian]

while i might not know what an iTouch is exactly i figure its some kind of portable thing like an ipod or ipad or iphone or some shit like that you can use the net on
my point was you have to sleep at some point and the 5% spell buff in my opinion is not enough when compared to the other hybrid casters buffs

It is not that hard to find out, try googling it.

[Purple]

Well, hopefully they will make it more of a smart effect, healing the Priest and the 4 lowest health members of the raid instead of being limited to your party. That would mean they could keep the amount that it heals the same without being overpowered or useless.

Intelligently finding raid members that weren't topped off would be a step in the right direction, though, I'd also note the amount healed is something that should be attended to. I'd also restate that I feel the requirement of Imp VE to get the most out of VE is rather dated (by my mind). I wish they'd just combine the two talents. They probably won't, and I realize not everyone will agree.. but that's my honest take.

I say all that, because.. my reaction was still, "Hooray for 25% self healing, and 1% raid healing?" as above.

I love you?

It would never work out. You're a forum moderator, I'm a forum troll.. it's just not meant to be.

[Radux]

Well, Purple, my guess is that they actually will get rid of Improved VE. Why? VE is a buff now, rather than a debuff. Improved just buffs the buff, as Kelesti stated earlier. So it will probably be gone.

How will they fix it? God knows. Hope they just make it 25% self and 5% raid (for 5 targets or whatever).

[fabian]

Well, Purple, my guess is that they actually will get rid of Improved VE. Why? VE is a buff now, rather than a debuff. Improved just buffs the buff, as Kelesti stated earlier. So it will probably be gone.

How will they fix it? God knows. Hope they just make it 25% self and 5% raid (for 5 targets or whatever).

I know it is true for raid buffs, but it might not be for self buffs.

I hate that we're still in alpha...

[Kaesebrezen]

I know it is true for raid buffs, but it might not be for self buffs.

But Ve is somewhere between Raidbuffs and Selfbuff.

[Kelesti]

It's true that VE lies in that little grey area between raid and self-buffs. But getting Improved VE actually affects your playing, your gamestyle (being able to live through anything :P). Getting Improved Divine Spirit, Improved Fortitude, Improved Mark of the Wild, etc... These don't buff your heals. Or your DPS. Or anything.

Improved VE still has one thing going for it: It's utility, and an interesting game choice.

I'd like to see Improved VE folded into VE by default, and Improved VE giving back a Judgement of Wisdom or Improved Leader of the Pack type of self-heal, or something. But if it stays as it is, I can see why.

[Lucky_]

I'd like to see Improved VE folded into VE by default, and Improved VE giving back a Judgement of Wisdom or Improved Leader of the Pack type of self-heal, or something. But if it stays as it is, I can see why.

This will look like trolling, but I really have to ask: Why?

It's already a completely unique utility that no one else brings. It can't afford to be OP, or else it will fall into "bring the class, not the player" category and get nerfed to oblivion before live hits. Just look at what happened in Wotlk to shamans with their bloodlust (damage nerf to hell on both dps specs) and even worse with DKs (stance raid buff completely removed, massive overnerfs).

I'd really rather have a balanced spec with properly balanced utility and damage rather then 1 patch worth of fame followed by wallowing in despair for the rest of the patch because the OP spec/class got nerfed, and overnerfed. And let's face it, VE will get massively buffed by change to healer mana in cata. There's no dancing around it - it will be far, FAR more powerful then it ever was in wotlk even if numbers don't change.

[Kelesti]

The ability itself already has to be reworked from the ground up, just because of the loss of group-based mechanics. 5% raid wide healing across 24 people (plus 25% on yourself) will be deemed as "OP" no matter how you look at it.

Judgement of Wisdom is a mechanic that is in use by one class, yet every caster depends on it to sustain their little blue bar. My first option frees up that. Second, if one was to use the Improved Leader of the Pack model, one would probably have to remove the raid-healing (5% of damage done) altogether, and just treat it like a caster version of ILotP.

If your non-periodic spells crit, you gain 4% of your base health, cannot happen more than once every 6 seconds. Tada. Worth two talent points? Maybe. It'd be fine and dandy utility, without screwing over anything else.

There are so many things that can be done to this spell. Something is going to happen to Vampiric Embrace. It's just a matter of "What"?

[fabian]

The ability itself already has to be reworked from the ground up, just because of the loss of group-based mechanics. 5% raid wide healing across 24 people (plus 25% on yourself) will be deemed as "OP" no matter how you look at it.

Judgement of Wisdom is a mechanic that is in use by one class, yet every caster depends on it to sustain their little blue bar. My first option frees up that. Second, if one was to use the Improved Leader of the Pack model, one would probably have to remove the raid-healing (5% of damage done) altogether, and just treat it like a caster version of ILotP.

If your non-periodic spells crit, you gain 4% of your base health, cannot happen more than once every 6 seconds. Tada. Worth two talent points? Maybe. It'd be fine and dandy utility, without screwing over anything else.

There are so many things that can be done to this spell. Something is going to happen to Vampiric Embrace. It's just a matter of "What"?

What confuses me is the fact that blizz has gone 2 completely different ways, albeit one was easier to manage than the other before. The old VT, the one that gave us the nickname "mana batteries" worked similarly to VE, and now look where it is. The mana returned is not based on our dps anymore. This is completely different of what happened to VE, in which is stayed pretty much the same except for the nerfs. They probably should just make it into ILotP or a healing stream totem.

[fabian]

Blizz preview says 5% haste, WoWTal says 5% crit and wowhead says 5% haste. There is also the alpha in-game test but since the NDA is not yet lifted(although apparently it will be lifted on Sunday) I can not say what has been found out.

I believe Blizz has said that they might change Nature's Grasp in the balance trees of druids to increase the base value instead of a steady 20%. They might do that with some of the raid buffs to help with the scaling but it can't be confirmed because of the NDA.