Making enh raid buffs useless?

[arcangel1337]

For a while now, I have questioned Blizzard's decisions on class raid buffs. 10% AP and 20% melee haste use to be the reason enhance shams were brought to raids. Then they made them do more damage, great. Now they are making many different classes that have the same buffs. Ret pallies and frost DKs have 20% melee haste (ret is ranged haste too, so its even better). Hunters and Blood DKs have 10% AP. Also, I know its not specifically enhance, but mages are getting bloodlust too. I understand not every raid can have an enhance shaman, and that doesn't mean every raid should be without those buffs. Especially in 10 mans, not every buff can be present, so are we making every class have blessings and gift of the wild, etc?

[Waterwings]

For a while now, I have questioned Blizzard's decisions on class raid buffs. 10% AP and 20% melee haste use to be the reason enhance shams were brought to raids. Then they made them do more damage, great. Now they are making many different classes that have the same buffs. Ret pallies and frost DKs have 20% melee haste (ret is ranged haste too, so its even better). Hunters and Blood DKs have 10% AP. Also, I know its not specifically enhance, but mages are getting bloodlust too. I understand not every raid can have an enhance shaman, and that doesn't mean every raid should be without those buffs. Especially in 10 mans, not every buff can be present, so are we making every class have blessings and gift of the wild, etc?

since when do ret pallies give 20% melee haste?

[OrangeToast]

They are changing Swift Retribution to give 20% Haste. But if you think about it they need this class homogenization to make sure that the new raid setup will be easily taken. Think about it if we get all the buffs in 25m but not in 10m how are they supposed to balance encounters where a single buff can make a difference between a kill and a wipe like some of the harder and more dps or hps stringent fights in ICC 25m (Festergut , Blood Queen).

[nazrakin]

For a while now, I have questioned Blizzard's decisions on class raid buffs. 10% AP and 20% melee haste use to be the reason enhance shams were brought to raids. Then they made them do more damage, great. Now they are making many different classes that have the same buffs. Ret pallies and frost DKs have 20% melee haste (ret is ranged haste too, so its even better). Hunters and Blood DKs have 10% AP. Also, I know its not specifically enhance, but mages are getting bloodlust too. I understand not every raid can have an enhance shaman, and that doesn't mean every raid should be without those buffs. Especially in 10 mans, not every buff can be present, so are we making every class have blessings and gift of the wild, etc?

Yep, the idea is that there is no such thing as unique utility. Hopefully, Blizz will also change their minds about the hybrid tax and get us on par with everyone else.

[OrangeToast]

If they ever hope to make 10m competitive then they need to be a lot more stringent on hps / dps requirement and with all this class homogenization the hybrid tax seems a little outdated.

[XemnasXD]

They are changing Swift Retribution to give 20% Haste. But if you think about it they need this class homogenization to make sure that the new raid setup will be easily taken. Think about it if we get all the buffs in 25m but not in 10m how are they supposed to balance encounters where a single buff can make a difference between a kill and a wipe like some of the harder and more dps or hps stringent fights in ICC 25m (Festergut , Blood Queen).

The problem from a shaman standpoint is that totems only have a 30 yard range. So why drop WF when a DK or a Ret Pally is there, not only does it take a GCD and only last 5 minutes but you have to stay near it if you want the buff. Infact since DKs can bring SoE as well and it covers up a much larger range why should a shaman drop those totems at all. Now there won't always be a DK in the party you say. Well assuming that DK, Pally, and Shaman DPS and survivability is equal if you had to choose between the guy whose buffs are stationary and only 30 yards for the guy whose buffs are raidwide and have 100% uptime the choice is obvious. Just take Battle Shout and Blessing of Might for example. Even with a capable warrior in the party if the fight last longer than 4 minutes he has to reapply it, in 25m if there are enough paladins people ask for Might, its 30 minutes, basically set it and forget it, refresh it 2-3 bosses later. You'll settle for BS but one is obviously better...

Totem buffs are more of a hindrance compared to the equal buffs that others bring. If Blizzard doesn't change this than a group that wants the best will always choose the DK or now the Ret Pally. The increase in 10m difficultly will require everyone is performing their best and so you'll want the best version of the buffs each class can bring. In 25ms it'll mean that shamans probably won't be dropping buff totems at all and a shaman not dropping totems isn't much of a shaman at all...

[Vargarii]

The problem from a shaman standpoint is that totems only have a 30 yard range. So why drop WF when a DK or a Ret Pally is there, not only does it take a GCD and only last 5 minutes but you have to stay near it if you want the buff. Infact since DKs can bring SoE as well and it covers up a much larger range why should a shaman drop those totems at all. Now there won't always be a DK in the party you say. Well assuming that DK, Pally, and Shaman DPS and survivability is equal if you had to choose between the guy whose buffs are stationary and only 30 yards for the guy whose buffs are raidwide and have 100% uptime the choice is obvious. Just take Battle Shout and Blessing of Might for example. Even with a capable warrior in the party if the fight last longer than 4 minutes he has to reapply it, in 25m if there are enough paladins people ask for Might, its 30 minutes, basically set it and forget it, refresh it 2-3 bosses later. You'll settle for BS but one is obviously better...

Totem buffs are more of a hindrance compared to the equal buffs that others bring. If Blizzard doesn't change this than a group that wants the best will always choose the DK or now the Ret Pally. The increase in 10m difficultly will require everyone is performing their best and so you'll want the best version of the buffs each class can bring. In 25ms it'll mean that shamans probably won't be dropping buff totems at all and a shaman not dropping totems isn't much of a shaman at all...

As far as your 10 man argument is concerned, It takes a mage, and a dk to equal 1 enh shaman's buffs and a lock, boomkin, mage for an ele shaman. While it's arguable that you can use a resto sham and etc. it still boils down to more buffs for your buck.

As far as the rest is concerned, it's just more movement towards bring the player, not the class. No one knows how things will pan out in cata, but as far as I'm concerned, I don't expect to be losing raiding spots to anyone, especially with the health improvements that are coming.

[XemnasXD]

As far as your 10 man argument is concerned, It takes a mage, and a dk to equal 1 enh shaman's buffs and a lock, boomkin, mage for an ele shaman. While it's arguable that you can use a resto sham and etc. it still boils down to more buffs for your buck.

As far as the rest is concerned, it's just more movement towards bring the player, not the class. No one knows how things will pan out in cata, but as far as I'm concerned, I don't expect to be losing raiding spots to anyone, especially with the health improvements that are coming.

/thread

[Vargarii]

/thread

except not /thread.


All the classes I spoke of, none of them consistently do any higher dmg than me in raids on fights that simply aren't disgusting for enh. Even as far as those fights go, ele can perform decently on them, and I'm almost finished making a set to be able to use for those fights.

While the classes may have the POTENTIAL to do more dmg than me on fights, player skill is still a factor, and as long as I keep running top 5 on burn fights, and finish my ele set to keep up on the worse enh fights, I won't be losing my spot.

Not to mention we don't know what our dmg lines will be like, yet.

[XemnasXD]

except not /thread.


All the classes I spoke of, none of them consistently do any higher dmg than me in raids on fights that simply aren't disgusting for enh. Even as far as those fights go, ele can perform decently on them, and I'm almost finished making a set to be able to use for those fights.

While the classes may have the POTENTIAL to do more dmg than me on fights, player skill is still a factor, and as long as I keep running top 5 on burn fights, and finish my ele set to keep up on the worse enh fights, I won't be losing my spot.

Not to mention we don't know what our dmg lines will be like, yet.

http://www.wow.com/2010/05/06/icc-dp...pec/#continued

/thread?

[Vargarii]

http://www.wow.com/2010/05/06/icc-dp...pec/#continued

/thread?

This relates to me, my guild spot and where i fit in how?

http://www.worldoflogs.com/reports/r...um/damageDone/


You'll notice that, with the exception of 3 people, most of the dps have an active time ranging from 100-400 seconds more than I do. This is our entire run, good fights, bad fights, trash, etc.

So 3 dps are a good deal better than me, and the others have far more active time, enough to note that, I could easily close that gap by matching the time.

I said that it pertained to my guild and my spot, I'm not competing with another classes avg or theoretical dps. I'm competing with my guild mates.

My argument of where I stand in comparison to my members still stands.

[Vargarii]

I could also note that mana regen doesn't look to be an issue atm, so redropping totems shouldn't hurt so much(I don't even have a problem with it now) And you still need multiple players to contribute the buffs of 1 solid player.

[XemnasXD]

This really isn't about you though. This is about the Shaman class as a whole and if you read that article and went and checked out WoL yourself you'll find that Shaman DPS is not in a good place right now. Every top guild knows it, i recall when one of them down TLK on 25m HM they bragged that they did even though they brought an Enh Shaman to the raid, thats not a good place to be in. If you look at the average dps pulled by Enh and Ele in ICC 25m its terrible. Enh is behind every other melee primary raid spec (fury, ass, ret, feral, marks) and Ele is equal to boomkins and behind every other casting spec except Frost...

Thats the bottom line about Shaman DPS right now as it pertains to the class as a whole and it didn't even include DKs...

most of this is irrelevant though because in Cata things are supposed to change. The fact remains that shamans versions of buff are inferior to other classes versions of the same buff. 30 yards is not that high and everytime they need to be redropped that a GCD which means less DPS and it also means the buff wasn't up on the raid 100% of the time because if it was we wouldn't have to redrop it. If a raid wants to make sure it has a melee haste buff Frost DKs or Ret Paladins are better. If they want SoE DKs have one that while not lasting as long as ours isn't immobile so it'll never be outranged. In a 10m the chances of you not having one or both of those is pretty good so the raid is stuck with your inferior buff. In a 25m, we shouldn't expect to drop totems at all...

[Vargarii]

This really isn't about you though. This is about the Shaman class as a whole and if you read that article and went and checked out WoL yourself you'll find that Shaman DPS is not in a good place right now. Every top guild knows it, i recall when one of them down TLK on 25m HM they bragged that they did even though they brought an Enh Shaman to the raid, thats not a good place to be in. If you look at the average dps pulled by Enh and Ele in ICC 25m its terrible. Enh is behind every other melee primary raid spec (fury, ass, ret, feral, marks) and Ele is equal to boomkins and behind every other casting spec except Frost...

Thats the bottom line about Shaman DPS right now as it pertains to the class as a whole and it didn't even include DKs...

most of this is irrelevant though because in Cata things are supposed to change. The fact remains that shamans versions of buff are inferior to other classes versions of the same buff. 30 yards is not that high and everytime they need to be redropped that a GCD which means less DPS and it also means the buff wasn't up on the raid 100% of the time because if it was we wouldn't have to redrop it. If a raid wants to make sure it has a melee haste buff Frost DKs or Ret Paladins are better. If they want SoE DKs have one that while not lasting as long as ours isn't immobile so it'll never be outranged. In a 10m the chances of you not having one or both of those is pretty good so the raid is stuck with your inferior buff. In a 25m, we shouldn't expect to drop totems at all...

That's just the thing. It IS about me...or you...or anyone else. Too much focus is placed on avg this, or top guild that. You should not build yourself around someone else's game.

My guild isn't a top guild, but we have all but put/lk down, and we do it with me in the raid. We play the game with what we have, and we don't replace people unless they are a problem. My pulling 1-2k less overall than a pure melee class doesn't stop me from clearing content. It may slow our progress because we choose not to stack w/e class can cheese an encounter for world first and whatnot, but that's not what we do. We move at our pace and clear all the content, and we still clear content at a rate much higher than the majority of wow players.

My opinions and views about what I need and what I feel about changes are based on the game I play, not the avg of every player out there, or the avgs of the top players in the world. I do this for a reason, because the game I play is on a higher standard than the avg player, and yet I'm still behind where the best stand. I'm ok with this, I'm not missing out on anything, and cata isn't ending my world.

My point is that these changes aren't going to ban people from content. If things look a little dim for enh shaman in comparison to other classes, then, unless it's by a wide margin, it will only affect top guilds, and ignorant masses. My game will remain the same unless I'm bottom of the meters at all times.

/edit also, as far as the range issue goes. As far as enh is concerned, there aren't a great many encounters where you have melee moving out of your totem range unless you are moving with them. Also, the dps loss from using 3-4 gcds to move totems a few times is so miniscule for an enh shaman that it shouldn't be affecting your encounter at all.

[Vargarii]

This is getting too deep into a personal discussion between xemnas and I, so I'd like to summarize where I want to go and move with that.

My opinion is simple. You all are turning an inch into a mile.

You'd be hard pressed to find an encounter that a few totem placements completely ruined your dps or the overall raid dps and caused failure. The dps disparity is also small enough currently, and hopefully will close even more, that most of you will still see plenty of content and only be discriminated against by idiots(or world first guilds), if enh falls behind a bit.

The world isn't ending, and you can still play your game.

[XemnasXD]

just because YOUR spot is safe and YOUR guild is fine with you being there even if they could theoretically replace you for a DPS boost doesn't mean everyones spot is safe. Believe it or not when people are putting groups together they do think about the buffs they bring and how well they work. When people are setting up an encounter totem placement is important because you want to maximize the amount of people affected by it without having to continuously reposition them. These recent changes to pally and DK buffs mean that position would no longer be a problem..

Not on Dreamwalker
Not on DeathWhisper
Not on Lootship
Not on TLK
Not on Princes
Not on Putricide

Those are all fights where classes that use WF/SoE can easily move out of its range unless it is redropped and on some of those fights if one side of the room is getting it, the other side isn't...having a raidwide or 100yard buff eliminates that problem completely and ensures that 100% of the classes that need that buff have access to it 100% of the time even if they have to be at a place where the Enh Shaman currently isn't so they'd have to wait for him to get there so he can redrop his totems so they can run out of range of them again...

If you can't realize this then im not going to keep trying to beat it into your head. Im glad you're playing for yourself and im glad you're having fun and don't care if your DPS is gimped compared to every other raid capable melee spec and your mechanics are outdated...your raid spot is safe.

[Vargarii]

Dreamwalker is strat dependent.
Deathwhisper is strat dependent.
Lootship you are usually moving with the people that need it.
TLK is the same.
Princes is the same.
Putricide is the same.

Those fights require more than enough movement that you can replace the totems during the lack of face time with a boss/add, so you can't really put totem drops as the reason for any dps loss.

Dreamwalker and deathwhisper being the only one where your melee would need to be split up with any of the strats.

In those situations you might lose some dps, but those fights also are not tight on the timers for people that can down them.

You can beat your point all day, but it's still the same thing I said in my summary. Making something out of nearly nothing.

[Vargarii]

just because YOUR spot is safe and YOUR guild is fine with you being there even if they could theoretically replace you for a DPS boost doesn't mean everyones spot is safe. Believe it or not when people are putting groups together they do think about the buffs they bring and how well they work. When people are setting up an encounter totem placement is important because you want to maximize the amount of people affected by it without having to continuously reposition them. These recent changes to pally and DK buffs mean that position would no longer be a problem..

I've also got to mention that this is just laziness. While the dk has it easier, I already mentioned that the fights you spoke of could generally be covered by a proactive shaman who placed totems during movement.

My issue is, that if you can't do a few simple things to cover for as many of your classes weaknesses(when there are ways, anyhow), or at least put some effort in rather than cry out on forums...you should reroll, because you deserve to be replaced by the 2 or 3 classes that can fit your buffs in.

There is nothing wrong with a class requiring more effort to be effective(and we are still effective, even if less so than some classes/specs, which still varies per player). If you can't play that kind of roll, do something easier.

[XemnasXD]

you know thats a line of garbage.

On TLK if you're saying your totem buffs are with you and every other melee in that raid regardless of defiles and running to dps the valk...you are lying.

On Putricide if you're saying that your that your totem buffs are with you and every other melee in that raid at all times regardless of slime pools, repositioning the boss, kiting slimes, and catching up to dps slimes...you are lying

On Princes if you're saying that your totem buffs are with you and every other melee in that raid regardless hunters moving around to shoot volley balls, or chasing after keleseth if the tank is moving around to avoid shockwaves...you are lying

on all those fights, no matter what the situation is, as long as those people are alive they have access to DK or Paladin buffs and are always in range or have them on them...

the same cannot, is not, and will never be said for a totem that only has a range of 30 yards. Im not even going with worst case scenarios, these are things that happen and these are reason why a raidwide buff will ALWAYS be better than a 30 yard buff of equivalent power. IDC how good you are, and clearly you're very good judging by your armory, there will always be people in that raid who don't have the buffs you bring because they are out of range for whatever reason and you can't always get there to redrop your totems to make sure they get it...that is not a 1/10000000 thing, its a regular occurrence, a fact of raiding...

im already jumping through hoops just to do competitive DPS with people who have equal gear and skill...a problem blizzard noticed and gave us a band-aid fix for, a problem you can clearly see on WoL if you look at the parses so don't act like its not there either just because YOU'RE satisfied with YOUR dps. I dont mind the rotation and i don't mind having to constantly redrop totems everywhere i go but they can't cover the whole raid so not everyone who needs them will get them...thats why they're inferior...

[Thereign]

Better yet, making hunters useless. We bring 3% damage (copy mage), 10% AP (the original of this), and Replenishment from each tree. Now enhance shamans and blood dks can overwrite the AP.