Making enh raid buffs useless?

[arcangel1337]

Better yet, making hunters useless. We bring 3% damage (copy mage), 10% AP (the original of this), and Replenishment from each tree. Now enhance shamans and blood dks can overwrite the AP.

Hunter will never be useless. Their dps makes them well worth the lack of buffs. Enhance shamans actually have to worry about this. No buffs can somewtimes mean no raids for the shaman in the top end guilds

[asgarth]

I really hope that Blizzard is gonna give BoK to another class.

[Vargarii]

you know thats a line of garbage.

On TLK if you saying your totem buffs are with you and every other melee in that raid regardless of defiles and running to dps the valk...you are lying.

On Putricide if you're saying that your that your totem buffs are with you and every other melee in that raid at all times regardless of slime pools, repositioning the boss, kiting slimes, and catching up to dps slimes...you are lying

On Princes if you're saying that your totem buffs are with you and every other melee in that raid regardless hunters moving around to shoot volley balls, or chasing after keleseth if the tank is moving around to avoid shockwaves...you are lying

No, I'm saying being on your game and dropping totems while moving to these targets, you can mostly cover all these changes oustide of your dps time.

I realize we have a lot more on our plates than others. It's just that there is a HUGE gap between hard and useless.

Useless is where people claim shaman are. That isn't true, Shaman are at a point that requires more work, and comes a little short.

I'm not saying we don't fall a little short, and yes, it is frustrating how little reward you get for your efforts. This, however, does not stop me from enjoying my class, and as long as I put in effort, I can still earn a spot among raids.

My hope is that this will still hold true, if not MORE true in cata, but it's a wait and see deal. We aren't the top of the totem pole, but we aren't bottom, either.

Judging changes for cata should be done more widely. Yes, other people get our buffs, but a lot of the changes already released can be significant for dps if done correctly, and there might even be more on its way.

If you aren't worthless now, don't expect to be worthless in cata. I don't know if people have a confidence issue because of where they stand now, or everyone only wants to look at the bad, but we aren't getting erased from the raiding scene.

[Vargarii]

Hunter will never be useless. Their dps makes them well worth the lack of buffs. Enhance shamans actually have to worry about this. No buffs can somewtimes mean no raids for the shaman in the top end guilds.

This demographic is too small...

Even amongst guilds that have killed or are putting attempts on LK, not all of them are dumping shaman and mages to get the kills.

Odds are, most of us aren't in one of these guilds. We cannot base our future on the theorycrafting decisions made by these guilds to accomplish first kills.

[XemnasXD]

This demographic is too small...

Even amongst guilds that have killed or are putting attempts on LK, not all of them are dumping shaman and mages to get the kills.

Odds are, most of us aren't in one of these guilds. We cannot base our future on the theorycrafting decisions made by these guilds to accomplish first kills.

for the love of benji...

over 30,000 fights are uploaded to WoL daily. Its an excellent tool used by most capable guilds to show and share their fight data. What you see on WoL is a record of mostly competent guilds and raiders and shamans are still OBVIOUSLY under-preforming. Shaman DPS is bad. I know it, most people know it, and Blizzard knows it. Thats why they buffed us after saying SHAMAN DPS WAS BAD. Every person who knows why shaman dps is bad knows the buff wasn't really going to help us that much which is why we're putting alot of faith in what they're doing to us for Cata...

Also i never said totems were useless, that was OPs shtick. I said they're inferior, and Blizzard knows they're inferior. Im not mad about other people getting our buffs, ok thats a lie i am a little ticked BUT i understand why its necessary. But if giving other people our buffs is part of the Balancing act than so should making our buffs equal to theirs. If Paladins and DKs don't have to worry about where they are during a fight and whether or not X is getting X buff why should we, thats not fun, thats not interesting. It was fine when we were the only one who could bring it then people had to work around us, but now they don't have to, now totems are a hindrance. The way things are looking now would you actually spend the time to position and place your totems if a ret pally and a DK were in the raid knowing that they were capable of the same things you are over a much larger area...in 10m that might not always be the case but in 25m, like i said and keep saying, we literally don't have any totems that we have to drop anymore...

[Jerion]

First off, ALPHA. They have not even shown the final buff situations, and you might be getting more, you don't know yet. Second, you are saying how the range on totems is an issue, but saying buffs from auras are fine? They have a range as well.

[Kraddark]

For a while now, I have questioned Blizzard's decisions on class raid buffs. 10% AP and 20% melee haste use to be the reason enhance shams were brought to raids. Then they made them do more damage, great. Now they are making many different classes that have the same buffs. Ret pallies and frost DKs have 20% melee haste (ret is ranged haste too, so its even better). Hunters and Blood DKs have 10% AP. Also, I know its not specifically enhance, but mages are getting bloodlust too. I understand not every raid can have an enhance shaman, and that doesn't mean every raid should be without those buffs. Especially in 10 mans, not every buff can be present, so are we making every class have blessings and gift of the wild, etc?

I think they are making gift into kings.

have the classes with op utility cancel each other out is win on blizz's part.


"we need a paladin?"
"nah we got a druid."

[Vargarii]

On the same token, I never said they weren't inferior.

I said they weren't useless.

My issue isn't with the known fact that we are a little shafted, it's with people saying we won't be raiding and that we have no use.

Blizz has stated sometime in the past that they had wanted to leave totems and auras the way they were instead of making them have a longer range. With their track record, that probably means they'll do it....someday. God knows when, though.

I don't disagree with you about the extra work involved for shaman Xemnas, but I don't really dislike the extra work, either.

What I disagree with, wholeheartedly, are posts like this OP who blow everything out of proportion and say there's no reason to be a shaman spec that isn't resto.

[Nymrael]

Blizz maybe have messed up with what seems to be a hybrid and a pure class..
Shaman is hybrid class. Mage is a pure dps class. I don't expect to top a mage dps wise (though I mostly do...) BUT I expect to bring something more to the raid and not only heroism. The versatility of the shaman is amazing. I would gladly sacrifice a bit of my dps for some more *extra* buffing OR supporting abilities which would be unique amongst the other classes.

[Danund81]

Oh GOD. You two make my head hurt. "Your opinion is wrong but I still respect it." "I'm sorry that you don't see my superior point of view but that's okay! Really!" "I'm not SAYING you're wrong, I'm simply saying that I feel I am right." "I understand completely how strongly you feel abou-"

Just SAY IT. "I'm right you're wrong and I know it because I have the power of a website's link."

On a side note, Shamans originally were a supporting class. If the class lacks the support that was in its original guideline, or a being found expendable in a group due to overlapping buffs, blizzard will step in and assist in one way, shape or form. In other words, compensation.

*waits to be shot down in the crossfire*

[Vargarii]

Just SAY IT. "I'm right you're wrong and I know it because I have the power of a website's link."

Can't shoot it down, can only sig it.

[Omanley]

The problem from a shaman standpoint is that totems only have a 30 yard range. So why drop WF when a DK or a Ret Pally is there, not only does it take a GCD and only last 5 minutes but you have to stay near it if you want the buff. Infact since DKs can bring SoE as well and it covers up a much larger range why should a shaman drop those totems at all. Now there won't always be a DK in the party you say. Well assuming that DK, Pally, and Shaman DPS and survivability is equal if you had to choose between the guy whose buffs are stationary and only 30 yards for the guy whose buffs are raidwide and have 100% uptime the choice is obvious. Just take Battle Shout and Blessing of Might for example. Even with a capable warrior in the party if the fight last longer than 4 minutes he has to reapply it, in 25m if there are enough paladins people ask for Might, its 30 minutes, basically set it and forget it, refresh it 2-3 bosses later. You'll settle for BS but one is obviously better...

Totem buffs are more of a hindrance compared to the equal buffs that others bring. If Blizzard doesn't change this than a group that wants the best will always choose the DK or now the Ret Pally. The increase in 10m difficultly will require everyone is performing their best and so you'll want the best version of the buffs each class can bring. In 25ms it'll mean that shamans probably won't be dropping buff totems at all and a shaman not dropping totems isn't much of a shaman at all...

I dont mind having other classes providing the same buffs as me.
I do mind however, that all those other classes (except for horn of winter and warrior shouts ) do not have to reapply their buffs every trash group, twice every boss or even more when movement is in demand.
I completely agree with you, xemnas. the buffs provided by our totems stopped being unique at the end of wotlk, so why do they still continue to be the most player unfriendly buffs, if they´re not any better compared to what others bring?

Scrap the part about our buffs being totems. Change our pve-totems into spells, 100y range, undestroyable, mobile, 30 minute duration, and undispellable.
you will decide between ( you cant have more than one of each element active )

wind
slicing winds (20% haste) or wrath of air ( 5% spell haste )
(windfury renamed to prevent confusion between the imbue and buff )

earth
strenght of earth (strenght/agility) or earthern meditation ( mp5 )
(manaspring renamed to fit it into the earth slot)

water
healing stream ( hp2 ) or glacial armor ( armor )
(stoneskin renamed to fit it into the water slot)

fire
fiery wrath ( 4% spellpower ) or thermal infusion ( 10% on all stats )
(paladins get our haste, we get their blessing of kings ( which is still unique ))

with these changes every element has a melee and a caster buff

and possibly

make a cooldown out of the fire/nature/frost resistance totems
=> Elemental Warding: Increases you and your groups reistances against the elements for 30 seconds
and reflects any other type of magic (holy/shadow/arcane)for 6 seconds. 2 minute cooldown
requires four active totems

damaging totems ( searing ) and utility totems ( tremor, earthbind ) will continue to be totems, and get reworked as well.

[LyskaWF]

That's an interesting idea, but I don't like it. Totems need to be killable, but with some effort (as the new enhancement talent is doing). Your idea for elemental warding is very good, but 30s is far too long. Aura Mastery, which is the same idea as your proposal, only lasts for 6 seconds. I think something like 10-12 seconds would be fine, since (right now at least) paladin auras are stronger than what our totems will be.

The easiest fix here is increasing the range of totems to be 50 or 100 yards. I think that the totem health talent should be in the second tier of the enhancement tree. It's purely a PvP talent that resto and elemental should be able to pick up.

[Omanley]

That's an interesting idea, but I don't like it. Totems need to be killable, but with some effort (as the new enhancement talent is doing).

i didn´t say anything otherwise. it´s only our pve totems turning into spells. tremor, earthbind and the like mostly remain how they are ( altered effects maybe, but still totems )
our pve buffs are the say as those of other classes, no point in them having to be totems. totems should be something cool, and our pve buffs arent that anymore.

Your idea for elemental warding is very good, but 30s is far too long. Aura Mastery, which is the same idea as your proposal, only lasts for 6 seconds. I think something like 10-12 seconds would be fine, since (right now at least) paladin auras are stronger than what our totems will be.

Aura Mastery
Concentration Aura provides immunity to Silence and Interrupt effects.
Effectiveness of all other auras increased by 100%.

how is that connected with my idea? ??? 6 seconds of immunity against silence/interrupt and doubled aura effectiveness vs

=> Elemental Warding: Increases you and your groups resistances against the elements for 30 seconds
and reflects any other type of magic (holy/shadow/arcane)for 6 seconds. 2 minute cooldown
requires four active totems

The easiest fix here is increasing the range of totems to be 50 or 100 yards. I think that the totem health talent should be in the second tier of the enhancement tree. It's purely a PvP talent that resto and elemental should be able to pick up.

this whole thread is mainly directed at pve. higher hitpoints for totems arent going to help there in any way. and while a higher range for pve totems would certainly help, they arent doing anything more than other classes buffs, which have higher (infinite) duration, no range issues and therefor perfect uptime etc etc.

keep also in mind that you will hardly use pve totems in pvp such as windfury as much as you want, as grounding, earthbind, tremor, cleansing and stonclaw clog that slot.

[Fornaw]

Better yet, making hunters useless. We bring 3% damage (copy mage), 10% AP (the original of this), and Replenishment from each tree. Now enhance shamans and blood dks can overwrite the AP.

10% AP was a shaman buff first, TSA in BC was closer to a might equivalent it provided a fixed amount of AP to the party (I think they stacked though), UR has always been 10% AP. The change to make UR an aura has no affect on hunters, even in very poor gear shaman maintained 97%+ uptime on that buff.

Honestly 100 yard radius totems would be a fun mechanic to me. Sure you have to hit that button once per 5min, maybe a little more often in the most extreme movement fights, but you gain the advantage of prepositioning which can, theoretically anyway, make it better situationally (think dreamwalker, drop them in the middle, right and left side covered no matter how far players run). In this situation Totems become better buffs sometimes, worse buffs sometimes, never gamebreakingly so. Currently totems are worse always (except for enhancing totems, that disparity should DiaF).

[Vargarii]

Shaman not wanting to replace totems, or someone not getting a raid spot because they don't want to replace totems, is not game breaking.

Yes, they aren't as easy/widespread as the other buffs, but not gamebreakingly so unless you absolutely refuse to replace them during combat. The dps loss from 1 gcd is negligable and you all blow this out of proportion.

This whole totem outrage is getting increasingly pathetic.

[Zarios]

Zage.. no other class has to deal with this bullshit. Honestly it seems shamans are the only class who actually stuck to their classes' mechanic.., but it's getting a bit out of control.

[Vargarii]

Zage.. no other class has to deal with this bullshit. Honestly it seems shamans are the only class who actually stuck to their classes' mechanic.., but it's getting a bit out of control.

I realize it takes us a few extra seconds of effort to redrop totems, but the issue I have is how many people act like it's a gamebreaker.

Yes, enh shaman already have plenty to deal with, yes when you add everything up, we get dumped on. However, we aren't broken or useless, and there are posts all over the forums claiming exactly that. I'm also against all the worry about changes when there are so many changes on the way. We don't have enough info to have ANY idea what our game is gonna be about months down the road, but there is already so many people crying wolf that it's insane.

The same goes with all the people crying out about our current issues. None of the current issues with the class make us as bad as others make it out to be. Despite all the quotes about top end guilds and the wol meters, most people are still getting raids and being allowed to see content that their guild can currently do.

I'm willing to bet that a large portion of the people crying out, haven't even lost raid spots, and are still making progress with their guilds.

I say this because no post has been "I sit out because of this problem every week" it's always "this change is so bad we'll never make a raid again".

[XemnasXD]

The point is this

Totems were given such limited range because they brought unique and powerful buffs to the raid and to the shaman using them. Blizzard wanted totems to not only be special but also a threat, something the shaman had to be aware of and enemies of shamans had to be aware of. Flash forward two expansions later and Blizzards stance on buffs has changed. Totems are no longer uniquely powerful, aside from cleansing and tremor(if you get lucky) they are no longer a threat. The once unique buffs they brought have been homogenized and spread out amongst other classes only since they don't use totems they are limited by their range and their presence in the physical world ( they can't be attacked) but they also have the benefit of being undispelled.

In PvP with the removal of cleansing what will honestly be the point of giving your totems more health...what totem will your enemy be trying to destroy. They're removing downranking so Grounding doesn't have to worry about dying to something and if Grounding is used properly that wasn't much of an issue anyway. Aside from Tremor and our Offensive fire totems (which don't last long and can easily be ranged) totems aren't that big of a deal. Either move away from them or move the shaman away from them if they're that big of a hassle. The biggest threat from totems is that mess you up when you're tabbing.

Blizzards stance on Buffs has changed
Blizzards stance on Totems has not

If Blizzard is balancing everything out and spread our buffs around then part of the balance should be to rethink Totem Mechanics. I like some of the ideas Omanley threw out there and i know Blizzard was considering something similar at some point and might still be. Totem mechanics are outdated though, since we were originally a support class to watch all our support go out the window with no buffs to our mechanics is insulting. They cut the balls off totems and haven't bothered to replace them with anything so now we just have these ballless outdated totems. Its time for an update. Totem Mechanics need to be brought up with everyone elses mechanics. You're right, theres aren't always game breaking things and redropping totems while a hassle is just something we've gotten used to. However its a shame when my totems can't reach everyone they should for whatever reason knowing all the while that a DK and soon a Ret Pally won't have the same problem...

[Fornaw]

Shaman not wanting to replace totems, or someone not getting a raid spot because they don't want to replace totems, is not game breaking.

Yes, they aren't as easy/widespread as the other buffs, but not gamebreakingly so unless you absolutely refuse to replace them during combat. The dps loss from 1 gcd is negligable and you all blow this out of proportion.

This whole totem outrage is getting increasingly pathetic.

I disagree. Meters show pretty clearly that fights like Putricide, Dreamwalker, Bloodprinces, and TLK tax the crap out of our dps. This isn't 1 GCD, its 1 per boss switch, or 1 every 20 seconds of kiting, or 2 every Valkyr spawn. It really does start to add up. The thing is they could fix it, as soon as you make Imp Icy Talons 100 yards you have to acknowledge that you are giving Frost DKs a massively superior buff. The battle field isn't about radius, its about area, rarely do we spread out or kite in a single line (ie valkyrs are more the exception than the rule), 100 yards is over 9 times the area of 30. As long as it remains a melee haste buff only it becomes less of an issue, but an issue it remains. What happens when Boomkin get 5% spell haste at 100 yards as well?

Short version. If we were arguing about Festergut or movement fights like Sindragosa I wouldn't care. Fights like Putricide and TLK cause my blood to boil at the range of totems.