Help - My guild's warriors don't sunder!

[pomop]

Sunder or gtfo. That is all you need to tell them.

It helps the raid as well as their own dps. If they refuse to do it, kick their ass out of the raid and find a warrior that knows that the hell he is doing.



(Sleepy, low temper. :S)

Time to get some new warriors I'd say. It's like having 3 hunters and one of them not becoming the HM bitch.

I'm a warrior nub, but its possible for them to arp cap without sunders up? impressive.

Not exactly. The two bonuses do not stack. Say a boss has 10,000 armor. Sunder will reduce that to 8,000. Now ArP will go into effect. So ArP % penetration is taken from 8,000 rather than 10,000. If you have 50% ArP, then to you the boss only has 4,000 armor.



Oh also OP, show them this thread. Show those warriors what we think about them and their refusal to be as effective as possible.

edit - Also Warriors are the least affected by dps decrease of all the classes that can apply the sunder debuff.

[Grguch]

if youre penetrating 100% of armor youre penetrating a hundred percent of armor.

Penetrating 100% of a lower number (what sunder does, reduces armor), is no different.

*however armor pen says "up to" for a reason. so yeah. sunder.

Still though, they are short sighted and not team players if they dont sunder for a raid. gkick asap

All raid bosses in WotLK have 13,083 armor. Once fully debuffed with Sunder armor etc. that is reduced to 7,898 armor. (testing is old but hasn't been proven wrong)

At 100% arp vs that 13,083 undebuffed boss, it still has roughly 3,000 armor left.
At 100% arp vs the 7,898 fully debuffed boss, it has 6 armor.

Sources: http://elitistjerks.com/f15/t37584-w...armor_testing/ and http://www.wowwiki.com/Armor_penetration

So yeah, get those sunders rolling.

[Exclusive]

Some random but very true facts you can bring in:
- 100% ArP does NOT mean sunder armor isn't helping anymore, there is some wicked formula which first calculates effects like sunder armor, fearie fire, and then passes on to item ArP. 100% ArP does not mean they ignore all boss armor. (edit: look at the post above me, thats what I meant, 100% isn't 100% but only gets calculated on a part of the total armor)
- having the above in mind, sunder armor is IN ALL CASES a personal DPS increase for the warrior who's putting up sunder. Yes it will cost rage, yes it will make the sundering person do slightly less dps than the not sundering warriors, but still he's increasing dps.
- the above goes for rogues with Expose Armor by the way. If 1 rogue puts and keeps it up, it's still a personal dps increase for him. Alltho it's better for a warrior to maintain a sunder than for a rogue to maintain expose, because 5combopoints takes more time to gather than 30 rage.
- Why, just why, do you keep bringing them to raids? If they are being fucking selfish pricks (which I really think they are) well, then leave them out? Recruit a new warrior who DOES sunder and tell them to play like him or they get kicked or demoted to some non-raiding-rank. YOU are the one saying whats happening in raids, not them.
- Personal dps is again just a purely selfish fucked up thing to do care for. They should just look up for a moment how much RAID dps you gain when there is 5x sunder armor up. The difference is just insane.
- Again, tell them to start fucking playing properly or just get lost. I don't know if you're like a guild leader or raid leader or officer or whatever, but I would surely do whatever is needed to stop them from raiding until they sort themselves.

Oh and one more thing. You say you have at least 3 dps warriors.
Why? Just.... why? Not saying a dps warrior is a bad thing (ok in your case, they are!!) but why would you bring 3 or more :\

[pomop]

Get a rogue to keep sunder armor up its only 400 dps loss for rogues

Also a Hunter pet Worm's Acid Spit. can do the exact same thing

Only BM Hunters can get a worm.

And it is less of a dps decrease for a warrior to keep sunder up than a rogue to keep expose up.

[Craigadiddle]

sunder = reduces armor
armor pen = ignores armor.

[Para101]

Warriors sunder acts as a debuff to the boss armor, ARP ignores a percentage of whats left.

A lvl 83 boss has 13083 armor, the armor constant for this boss, C, is 16635 (i have included ghostcrawlers formula at the end).

To figure out how much of our ARP is beeing used without any debuffs to the boss armor, you take (boss armor + C)/3 = 9906, and multiply this by your ARP value, say 90%, giving 9906*90%=8915 armor reduced.

The remaining armor of the boss is (13083-8915)=4168 armor, meaning the attack goes through against 4168 armor.

Now, reduce the boss armor by 25% (FF and sunder).
The armor constant, C, is still the same, but the boss armor is now 13083-25%=9812!
(boss armor+c)/3 is now 8815, multiplied by 90% gives 7934 armor reduced.

The remaining armor of the boss is (9812-7934)=1878 armor, meaning the attack goes through against 1878 armor.

Since armor scales, your warriors should really get sundering they are missing out on aprox. 2300 armor! You can calculate the dps loss here yourself, but thats a quick explination to how the ARP works. The thing is, the tooltip can be a bit misleading to the young mind


The code behind ARP explained by Ghostcrawler is as follows;

Computing the cap is a little tricky unless you are already familiar with how World of Warcraft armor works. There is an armor constant we’ll call C. C is derived as follows (in some pseudocode):

If (level<60)
C=400+85*targetlevel
Else
C=400+85*targetlevel+4.5*85*(targetlevel-59);

For a level 80 target, C=15232.5. For a level 83, C=16635.

The cap for Armor Penetration then is: (armor + C)/3.

A level 80 warrior creature has 9729 armor. C=15232.5. So, the cap is (9729+15232.5)/3=8320.5. Let’s say a player has 30% armor penetration from armor penetration rating and no other modifiers that complicate the calculation (talents, Battle Stance, Sunder Armor, etc.). The game chooses the minimum of 8320.5 and 9729, so 8320.5. That is multiplied by 30% = 2496.15, and so that much armor is ignored. The effective armor on the target is 7232.85 (9729-2496.15). From a player point of view, the armor penetration rating didn’t ignore the full 30%, but instead ignored 25.66%. (85.5% as effective as expected).

The tooltip is not actually inaccurate, as it states: “Enemy armor reduced by up to 30.00%.” That "up to" is key.

[Cactrot]

Here's my recommendation for the selfish warriors if they won't listen to the logical points. Specifically, that it's a raid DPS increase as well as a personal DPS increase and that 100% armor pen still benefits from sunders.

Simple plan: Give them numbers and do a /roll to see who it is, and give him sunder bitch status for the night. If he won't do it, kick him and replace him. Pick the next. Rinse repeat.

Either way, start recruiting replacements as soon as you can. How can you want to raid with so many people who obviously do not care about the raid? Do you trust them to truly know their rotations, the strats, and to pay attention? If they aren't dedicated enough to press an extra button, they aren't dedicated enough to be in a guild run.

[Tussi]

My guild's only arms warrior.
We have fury warriors.
I'm still the sunder bitch. At least I keep that crap up the entire fight.

[Ssateneth]

Warriors sunder acts as a debuff to the boss armor, ARP ignores a percentage of whats left.

A lvl 83 boss has 13083 armor, the armor constant for this boss, C, is 16635 (i have included ghostcrawlers formula at the end).

To figure out how much of our ARP is beeing used without any debuffs to the boss armor, you take (boss armor + C)/3 = 9906, and multiply this by your ARP value, say 90%, giving 9906*90%=8915 armor reduced.

The remaining armor of the boss is (13083-8915)=4168 armor, meaning the attack goes through against 4168 armor.

Now, reduce the boss armor by 25% (FF and sunder).
The armor constant, C, is still the same, but the boss armor is now 13083-25%=9812!
(boss armor+c)/3 is now 8815, multiplied by 90% gives 7934 armor reduced.

The remaining armor of the boss is (9812-7934)=1878 armor, meaning the attack goes through against 1878 armor.

Since armor scales, your warriors should really get sundering they are missing out on aprox. 2300 armor! You can calculate the dps loss here yourself, but thats a quick explination to how the ARP works. The thing is, the tooltip can be a bit misleading to the young mind


The code behind ARP explained by Ghostcrawler is as follows;

Computing the cap is a little tricky unless you are already familiar with how World of Warcraft armor works. There is an armor constant we’ll call C. C is derived as follows (in some pseudocode):

If (level<60)
C=400+85*targetlevel
Else
C=400+85*targetlevel+4.5*85*(targetlevel-59);

For a level 80 target, C=15232.5. For a level 83, C=16635.

The cap for Armor Penetration then is: (armor + C)/3.

A level 80 warrior creature has 9729 armor. C=15232.5. So, the cap is (9729+15232.5)/3=8320.5. Let’s say a player has 30% armor penetration from armor penetration rating and no other modifiers that complicate the calculation (talents, Battle Stance, Sunder Armor, etc.). The game chooses the minimum of 8320.5 and 9729, so 8320.5. That is multiplied by 30% = 2496.15, and so that much armor is ignored. The effective armor on the target is 7232.85 (9729-2496.15). From a player point of view, the armor penetration rating didn’t ignore the full 30%, but instead ignored 25.66%. (85.5% as effective as expected).

The tooltip is not actually inaccurate, as it states: “Enemy armor reduced by up to 30.00%.” That "up to" is key.

This sounds eerily familiar, almost copy-paste like. But it is accurate. When I played an MS warrior in raids (Yes, PVE Arms. It was fun for me and I often dished out more damage than the usual fury warriors geared better than me, though this was in the days when ToC25 was the top tier), I always sundered without being told to, unless there was a prot warrior. I knew it was a dps increase for myself, and others loved it too, though I do think the fury warrior next to me shouldve sundered since he has more free gcds than me since I'm spamming slam when my other abilities are on cooldown or I'm waiting for overpower/execute procs.

Once the boss has more than 8318 armor (with or without reducing armor debuffs present, whichever the situation calls for), your tooltip armor penetration is not equal to how much armor you are actually ignoring. Though you will ignore a larger amount of armor the more armor the boss has, you will be ignoring less of a percent of it after it's more than 8318 armor. The closer you can get your target's "calculated" armor according to your attacks to zero, then your damage will get exponentially higher.

Tell your warriors to sunder or gtfo. They're just nerfing their own damage otherwise.

[Eldrea]

My guild's only arms warrior.
We have fury warriors.
I'm still the sunder bitch. At least I keep that crap up the entire fight.

That just makes you a better player than them

[Valistryx]

It isn't a DPS loss at any level of Armor Penetration to put up the Sunder Armor debuff. It may take GCDs out of your rotation (if you're smart, very few will be lost), but the 20% debuff is separate from your own personal Armor Penetration rating. So, if you are at 80% personal ArP it does not take you to 100%, and if you are at 100% it isn't wasted... it will always increase your DPS. In fact, the (personal) gain from Sunder Armor is HIGHEST at 100% Armor Pen because it allows your ArP to ignore more of the targets armor (believe it or not, 100% ArP does NOT ignore all of the armor of a raid boss).

Of course, an Arms Warrior shouldn't be the one to put it up, but if you have three I assume one of them is Fury, and he should be able to keep it up without breaking his rotation if he isn't a complete idiot (bad assumption for me to make).

[Verth]

Incoherent players first deserve a warning then a ban from the next raid till they know their position then a gkick and a bad shoutout in trade.

You should propably invite a warrior that knows his job and doesnt need any explaining to do it.

[Cactrot]

Incoherent players first deserve a warning then a ban from the next raid till they know their position then a gkick and a bad shoutout in trade.

You should propably invite a warrior that knows his job and doesnt need any explaining to do it.

A bad shoutout in raid will never do anything but make your guild look bad. A person doing the shoutout in raid makes that person looks bad. A guild backed one makes the entire guild look bad.

[bertugolu]

Whenever we've discussed it they've stated that they are at 100% ArP and no longer need sunders, and/or it is a DPS loss for THEM to throw them up. Myself and others have explained a countless number of times how much fail resides in their response, but every raid night passes and we still never see a full stack of sunders stay on a boss.

Tell them that Armor Penetration is applied AFTER the effects of sunder armor and FF. So, they are loosing DPS themselves.

Besides, if you got 3 fury warriors, if each warrior presses 2 sunder armor at the start, then make a rotation that each fury hits sunder every 30 seconds, they will loose 1 global cooldown every ~ 90 sec (well, less technically).

Or Gkick them for being total idiots.

[Yvaelle]

It's usually actually a personal dps increase too on 2-3 minute+ fights, how people don't sunder is a freaking mystery to me.

[Bassch]

If ye have a kind hunter, ask him can he respec BM when more DPS isn't needed, and get a worm, because the worm does sunder or ye could ask a kind rogue to use 5 points to get up expose =)

[boneschaman]

have a rogue or bm do their job and kick them

[Kyrsa]

the biggest dps gain as a warrior is 5 sunders on any target, especially at 100% arp, I'm not going to go back into the math as its been done a few times already.

it's also the biggest gain to get 5 stacks up as fast as possible for the raids dps as well as your own. Yes you lose dps for the first 5 gcds, but the raid gains a lot and so do you in the long run. Past that keeping it up is easy.

And if you have 3 fury wars they can all hit sunder twice, and then only one of them needs to keep it up, so collectively they lose less dps, while the raid still gains a lot.

generally in 25 mans I don't have to sunder, as we have a prot war as one of the guilds main tanks. But I am currently spec'd into improved Demo Shout, so that the prot tank could spec for deep wounds and higher threat. But in 10 man I usually have to do both. Which is something else you should bring up with 3 fury wars, one of them spec'd into imp demo or not should be using demo shout if you don't have a warrior tank.

Like its been said already either they sunder, or they should get sat or kicked.


*edit
I just thought to also mention, that on encounters like Lady Death Whisper and blood princes even with a warrior tank dps wars should be sundering.
LDW - tank is on adds for the first phase and yes sundering does help physical dps burn through the shield faster.
Blood Princes - Warrior tank is only on one of them, and granted it may be a bigger pain in the ass to have to get sunders back to a 5 stack after target swaps, but it is still a dps gain and absolutely worth doing.

[bawchicawawa]

What kyrsa said

they should be kicked for not knowing this already IMO

[Argarock]

only read OP so don't flame me if this have been said before..

Kick one of them from the guild.

easy as that, tell the two others that if they don't start listening they will get kicked to.