Inner rage

[fxrs]

Any thoughts on inner rage? Like,dislike.

[smokeydown]

Blizzard has said they don't want us to pool our rage to get the 15% buff, but I think that's what we are going to end up doing anyways.

Say the Inner Rage buff lasts 6 secs (I don't think they has stated how long the buff will last yet), I think most will let the rage bar fill up to get the buff, then dump their rage through heroic strike (which is going to work more like execute), then repeat that every 6 secs.

In fights where you don't always have large amounts of rage, I think you'll tank just as you do now.

[RPZip]

The current PTR version (as per EJ) is +10% rage cost, +50% damage from abilities, cancels if you drop below 30 Rage.

There's no way those numbers are going live, though.

[fxrs]

The current PTR version (as per EJ) is +10% rage cost, +50% damage from abilities, cancels if you drop below 30 Rage.

There's no way those numbers are going live, though.

I agree but it would be nice.

[Pieterman]

just gonna make warriors broken once more.

[fxrs]

just gonna make warriors broken once more.

I'll give GC and company the benefit of the doubt for the time being. I just read his latest post on this and I'm seeing his usual defensive stance when pointed questions are asked. But we'll see.

[gherkin]

If you ignore all the numbers posted and look at the core of the problem:

A) Remove Heroic Strike
B) Warriors now generate more rage than they can spend
C) How do we get warriors spending more rage and not wasting it?

then IR is an amazing change and drastically changes the class for the better. It will be a bit tricky to get right the first time because of scaling, but I think they can pull it off. Apprehensively Optimistic is how I would describe it.

If you focus on the (incorrect) numbers then you will accumulate rage yourself.

[Ildurnest]

Warrior (Forums / Talent Calculator)
Heroic Strike
The design intent for Heroic Strike has pretty much always been that you use it to bleed off excess rage and convert that into damage. We haven’t been happy for some time that warriors can hit a near-infinite rage plateau, but we knew changing that would be a major overhaul (one best saved until now, for instance). In the meantime, we have to balance around damage actually being done by warriors. We can’t say “Well, we didn’t want them to convert nearly every white swing into a Heroic Strike, so we’ll just pretend they don’t when we do the numbers.” We have to balance around actual performance, not design intent, up until the point where something violates the design intent enough for us to want to change it.

The Cataclysm design for Heroic Strike gets the ability back into the role where we want it. There is no reason to conclude warrior dps is hopeless without it. We have dozens of knobs to turn, from the damage done by Devastate and Shield Slam to stats on gear to the new passive talent tree bonuses. Imagine that we are changing every number in the game – some will get lower and some will get higher. That makes it fairly meaningless to try and do any kind of mathematical analysis on the way mechanics will work. I understand that the temptation is there though. Smiley Discussing the role of abilities or how they might functions is perfectly appropriate. Concocting equations that look something like X + [a bunch of stuff I can’t measure yet] > Y is a little premature. (Source)

Inner Rage

It could be 10% rage and 300% damage if those are the appropriate numbers to use. We provided numbers for some abilities in the preview so that players would get a vague sense of the intent of the ability. We tried to caveat that a lot so that players wouldn't freak out about the math. Numbers are trivial for us to change -- that's not the challenging part of adding an ability. (Now figure out the right number can be quite challenging).

If the numbers scare you, imagine that we just said the goal of the ability is that when you hit max rage instead of wasting it (like you'd do today), you enter into a state where you do increased damage for increased rage cost so that the rage bar drops, but you aren't penalized for it. The trick to that design is we also don't want warriors just doing nothing until they hit 100 rage before they can start having fun. We don't want you to constantly be worried about trying to get Inner Rage to proc. But we also don't want you to worry if a string of crits or big incoming damage or something suddenly floods you with rage faster than Heroic Strike / Cleave / Execute can drain it again. It's a safety valve, but hopefully a fun one, and not something that rarely comes into play. If somehow we nail rage management so tightly that you're just never near 100 rage, then we'd have to come up with a different ability. I'm not optimistic that will happen given warrior history, but the Cataclysm rage model is pretty radical too. (Source)

[...] It's not supposed to be a double-edged sword. It's supposed to let you convert rage into damage at a faster rate when you have too much rage. In your example, you're going to be doing more damage (and therefore more threat) while its active. In other words, you are going to be doing the exact same thing (rage -> damage) you would be doing if you weren't at 100 rage. There isn't a currently a warrior strategy that encourages doing nothing and just building rage, and I don't see why there would be one in Cataclysm. Maybe if Shield Wall cost 50 rage and you always needed to save some for emergencies, but we're not going to do that. At most you might need 10 rage for Pummel or Shield Bash, and even in that case Inner Rage doesn't drain your rage. It would be different if the mechanic was "all your abilities hit harder, but your rage goes to zero for the next 30 sec." Normally, you should *want* to spend rage. (Source)

They totally miss the problem in my opinion.

The REAL problem is that (it seems) they are making warrior resource management extremely complex.
Not only will we have a rage generation system that is very limiting, we will have inner rage taht will further limit our resource, while our abilities will consume rage in a variable form.

How are you even remotely capable of managing this while running from fire, yelling on vent and staying in melee range of that annoying no-aggro list boss?

Seriouly? I like challenging, but this is ridiculous.

[Freedom]

I wonder if this 50% damage increase or whatever will stack with Deathwish or Wrecking Crew/Enrage/Vengeance. Inc super burst.

[meliancill]

sigh they got the numbers mixed up. if you go threw the posts it isnt 50% damage 10% rage....


its 15% damage 50% more rage cost.

let me explane a little more to make it idiot proof ( this is mmo-champion though and im not god so ill hold my hopes low )


ill use devestate as an example. ( why? because i like it )


you normaly hit 2,000 with devestate at a cost of 10 rage. that comes out to 200 damage per point of rage spent.

now you hit 100 rage ( because like me you were spaming devestate watching clothies QQ on the forums )


inner rage kicks in

now you deal 2,300 damage with devstate at a cost of 15 rage 153.33 damage per rage....

now you see what the problem is going to be for blizz.

they whant to set it up so you dont lose damage by hitting 100 rage but yet they put in a system that does just that. now for the sake of argument lets use 10,000 damage. the amount shouldnt change though


10,000 damage 10 rage - 1,000 per point

11,500 with inner rage - 766.66666666666666666666666666667 damage per rage.

to bring it up to actualy being viable they would need it to be 50% more damage and 50% more rage cost.

and now to prove im not a nub here is a copy paste taken from the warrior post

Inner Rage (Level 81): Whenever the character reaches a full 100 Rage, he or she will gain a buff that causes attacks to consume 50% more Rage and do 15% more damage for a short amount of time. This is a passive ability so it won't need to be activated by the player. The goal for this ability is to provide a benefit for hitting max Rage instead of it feeling like a penalty. However, we also don't want warriors to feel like they're supposed to pool Rage and do nothing until they hit 100, so we'll be closely monitoring how this plays out during the beta testing, and making adjustments as needed.

and the link - http://www.mmo-champion.com/class-wa...w-compilation/

looks like as of now it will do the exact oposit of what blizzard wants ( at least from the way i understand it with the simple math skills i have )

[FacepalmerXtreme]

meliantard guy...

ugh...
dude...

now i know why everyone is forced to take math in college here. sigh. noob.

[smokeydown]

they want to set it up so you dont lose damage by hitting 100 rage but yet they put in a system that does just that.

In your own example the damage goes up, you don't lose damage by hitting 100 rage. Only the damage per rage point goes down, so you're not as efficient, but efficiency isn't going to matter much when you're at max rage.

[bigbad]

Efficiency is going to matter when you burn through 100 rage in 2-3gcds and rage is normalized. Not sure how the actual numbers will look like but 50% extra ragecost seems a bit steep for 10% extra damage.

[odarbi]

I'm going to go out on a limb and guess that Inner Rage will end up being something you want to proc during bloodlust. The extra haste will allow you to generate rage faster to offset the rage expendiature so you're not getting rage starved and wasting the effect.

Outside of that, I really don't see it being that useful.

[frankster]

Efficiency is going to matter when you burn through 100 rage in 2-3gcds and rage is normalized. Not sure how the actual numbers will look like but 50% extra ragecost seems a bit steep for 10% extra damage.

you're talking about a number they just made up for the sake of example and haven't tested yet.

so far all we know is the idea, so there's no point talking about any numbers

[DeManiac]

I like the concept, it's much like a thread I responeded to that was on the official forums if I recall right.
It was a thread about remaking the way rage was handled so that when below a certain point, spells were cheaper but did less dmg, and when above a certain value, they had higer rage cost, but also higher damage.


So, when you have Less then, 25% rage, you do 50% damage, but the rage cost of the abilities is reduced by 50%.
When you're at 25-75% rage, you do 100% damage and it's normal cost.
When you have more then 75%, then you do 150% damage, but the rage cost is 200%.

What's good to mention in addition to these values, is the fact that the intended ragebar to this system, would be bigger, think 1000 rage instead of 100.
So that when your at 30% rage, then you have 300, and you can do two Mortal Strikes, before you go below the 25% value, this meant that you wouldn't jump that much in the damage range.



Now the difference between Inner Rage and this old post, that is the fact that inner rage, it's a buff applied once you reach 100 rage, and it lasts a set time.
If you as an example, hit 100 rage, and you burn it in 2 sec because the increased rage cost was high, then you would end up with low rage, but still have a buff that increased the cost of all your abilities.



I like the concept as I said, but I think there should be more to it.

If the buff applied say 30% more damage, but also a 15% cost increase, then you would pool it, there is no downside to it.
If they were Equal, so that you had a 15% damage increase but also a 15% increase to the cost, then it would be beneficial when your over-geared or when your taking damage or being kited(pvp).
If the damage increase is lower then the cost increase,then you would try to avoid it if possible, and it would only be beneficial in those fights where you never get rage starved.





--PVP--

A tactic in pvp would be to damage the warrior to 100 rage, then ignore the warrior, the warrior would then switch stance, have a higher rage cost, and when ignored and trying to fight back, have a high rage cost thus draining the rage faster.

If they make the change so that switching stance will prevent you from gaining rage for a few sec but the rage you had when you switched is maintained.
This buff increases damage but greatly increases ragecost.
Then I see it as a failed and bad addition.


If they make the stance switch change, and the increase is more damage then cost increase.
Then people will either ignore the warrior as much as possible, or focus to kill.
This would make it ok, but make people pool rage in pve.




--So--

What if you were able to adjust it with glyphs?
It starts as a 15% damage and 15% cost increase, lasting 5 sec.


Available glyphs:
-Reckless Inner Rage-
Increases the damage increase of your Inner Rage but causes you to take 10% more damage while active.


-Defenders Inner Rage-
Increases the cost increase of your Inner Rage but causes you to take 5% less damage while active.


-Cunning Inner Rage-
Causes you to generate 5 rage / second while Inner Rage is active.

etc etc.


Another addition would be to auto cancel the effect if you go below a certain rage amount say 30.

[gherkin]

They totally miss the problem in my opinion.

The REAL problem is that (it seems) they are making warrior resource management extremely complex.
Not only will we have a rage generation system that is very limiting, we will have inner rage taht will further limit our resource, while our abilities will consume rage in a variable form.

How are you even remotely capable of managing this while running from fire, yelling on vent and staying in melee range of that annoying no-aggro list boss?

Seriouly? I like challenging, but this is ridiculous.

Inner rage is easier than you're making it.
Currently: If you don't spam Heroic Strike, you earn "wasted rage" that you don't get to spend. This means that you cannot map damage done by a warrior to their resource pool, meaning that they have to basically balance you around having rage all the time or hardly ever.

New: All spells have a two part tooltip. First part is "This much rage = this effect". Second part is "While inner rage is active, cost is +x rage and +y damage". You do everything based on "First part" until you hit 100 rage, then "Second part" kicks in until you spend 30 "Second part" rage (using GC's currently selected number, this may change).

It's like Death Knights. Blood Strike does X damage, and +Y% per disease on target. Mortal Strike does X damage, and +Y Damage and +Z Rage cost while Inner Rage is active.

[Battousai]

Yes, if we are simply talking about passive dpsing then it is a way to not have wasted rage. But to a min maxer we have to count on Blizz getting the numbers initally correct and then tweaking the numbers (as gear improves) correctly so that its not more benefitial to "hold off" attacks when >75 or so rage...to merely proc inner rage (75's just an example...but hopefully you get my point). This mechanic also sounds like itll have to be nerfed throughout progression as rage increases through haste/crit. Not to mention that 1hded fury will potentially have a very large difference in rage generation than 2hded. And, this difference in inner rage uptime will simply be another aspect to tweak and balance throughout all cataclysm as gear improves...ie nerfs.

Ghostcrawler was very keen (when the 1hded specialization came out) to say that the difference between 2hded and 1hded would be very easy to equate since they were merely going to do it through the single talent point and dw to dw was infinietly easier to balance than 1 2hder to DW is. This is simply another highly volitile variable to equate between the specs...and my guess is it isn't going to be the only one.

All this boils down to this...I don't think its going to be as easy as blizz thinks its going to be...and I think there are some really bad ideas rough ideas that blizzard should reconsider before release ...conceptually.

If blizzard is off on the numbers however...then yes, warrior dpsing is going to get very complex for the above average raider.

[galindo]

i think this will own for 1h fury, if improved bloorage, berserkerrage, angermanagement, and unbridled wrath remain in the game and haste is a decent fury stat then innerrage will be very easy to hit when u pop bloodrage

[toole]

You know what we can always do? Just skip the talent and don't bother learning it. Cause in my opinion it just seems stupid. A 45 rage ms screw that.