Enhance ~ FT vs. Magma

[Fornaw]

Flametongue is terrible, your lock should spec demo. Flametongue is like 300 dps increase for each caster, tops. Demonic Pact is at least 1000.

In a 10 man they could very easily not have a Warlock, of course they could also easily not have enough spell based ranged to make FT totem worth it as well (1 hunter 1 mage not going to cut it). Magma pushes out ~700 dps for me and as a rough approximation I would say 1 SP is between 2 and 3 dps for most casters. I would say the break point is 2 casters, assuming neither is a Warlock (in which case they can fix it themselves). I would also say it's not unreasonable to expect them to come within 30 yards of the boss, its 10 man, there's tons of room, and not being able to FN would bring your total DPS loss to greater than the DPS loss of not buffing 3 casters.

[Redjuice]

Just tell them to be 30yd from the boss and use Flametongue totem. There are not many bosses where casters have to be at max range.

If you drop your totem, say, 25 yards from the boss, you will be able to use FN, and the casters would be able to stand max 55yards from the boss and still get the FT buff (max distance being positioned with the FT totem directly between the caster and the boss creating a straight line)

[Zelven]

If you drop your totem, say, 25 yards from the boss, you will be able to use FN, and the casters would be able to stand max 55yards from the boss and still get the FT buff (max distance being positioned with the FT totem directly between the caster and the boss creating a straight line)

I'd love to know the Fire Nova spell you're using as the one I have only has a 10 yard radius. Being capable of casting the spell and actually having it hit something aside from a random critter really are two very different things.

The fire totem needs to be within 10 yards of the boss for it to actually hit the boss with Fire Nova. Thus, the casters must be within the 30 yard radius of the totem to benefit.

[Myte342]

Up until last week our guild was running ICC 10 with 3 shamans, one of each spec. Now I am the only one and am getting pestered (by another melee) to drop FT totem instead of Magma to give the casters and healers the SP boost. As Enhance, this prevents me from using FN as well, because I have to keep FT in the middle of the room so everyone gets it. Is it selfish of me to want to drop Magma for my own personal damage?

In all honesty, drop Flametongue Totem. I know your personal DPS will drop slightly, but in a friendly raid environment, no one will care about you losing 3-400 dps. Just make sure the RL knows that FT is a personal DPS loss and that you are sacrificing epeen for the raid.

[Vargarii]

Incorrect. We benefit from FT totem. We have lots of spells that benefit LB, FN, MT, ES, Flame Shock etc, around 50% of Enh damage is spellpower these ALL benefit from FT totem.

I know you're head honcho to look at for all the theorycrafting, and I understand your point(which is correct, of course), but 50% is a bit of an overstatement.


I pulled fester numbers so I could have pure single target %, and I also don't know if lshield/ft weap are affected, so I took three sets of numbers with and without.

Without either - 27.35% of my dmg was spell and affected by sp.(including Fire ele, and such)

Without FT weap - 32.13%

With both - 40.39%

Even including both abilities that I'm not sure about the benefits for sp(as I was pretty sure ft was not) I still only have about 40% of my dmg affected by sp.

Fact remains though, chances are pretty high that his casters are going to get more dps from his totem than he from magma/ft, unfortunately.

[Hypernetic]

Just drop a sentry totem, it will save the day.

[Agnobull]

Up until last week our guild was running ICC 10 with 3 shamans, one of each spec.

supposing "one of each spec" includes Ele (wrath totem) and Healer (usually FT) you shouldn't have to put FT out =)

(sry for bad english)

[Vargarii]

supposing "one of each spec" includes Ele (wrath totem) and Healer (usually FT) you shouldn't have to put FT out =)

(sry for bad english)

Note that the rest of the post points out that he is now the only shaman.

[Deleted]

I know you're head honcho to look at for all the theorycrafting, and I understand your point(which is correct, of course), but 50% is a bit of an overstatement.

Fact remains though, chances are pretty high that his casters are going to get more dps from his totem than he from magma/ft, unfortunately.

Yeah I was just saying that our dps is roughly 50/50 physical/spell often its closer to 60/40 as you mention but it depends on the fight and the amount of movement involved. Lots of movement and you are doing less direct weapon attacks and more LB, Shock (inc FS ticks), LS, magma totem, FN etc. So 50% was not intended to be read as a theorycrafted number instead a rough estimation that we do 50% physical/50% spell. So his point about FT totem doesn't affect Enhance damage was just plain WRONG.

For information:

AP affects - melee, Stormstrike, Lava Lash, Windfury, Spirit Wolves

SP affects - Earth Shock, Flame Shock, Flame Shock dot, Lightning Bolt, Lightning Shield, Magma Totem, Fire Nova, Flametongue weapon, Fire Elemental

[Deleted]

...
SP affects - Earth Shock, Flame Shock, Flame Shock dot, Lightning Bolt, Lightning Shield, Magma Totem, Fire Nova, Flametongue weapon, Fire Elemental

i would love to know how you can use magma totem and flametongue totem at the same time. they're both fire totems.

and you made that mistake multiple times so far in this thread.

[M4d2m0A]

i would love to know how you can use magma totem and flametongue totem at the same time. they're both fire totems.

and you made that mistake multiple times so far in this thread.

You really think he didn't know that? I think you're misunderstanding the fact that he's just stating that SP effects those spells. You also can't use Fire elemental totem and magma totem, but you made that mistake in not pointing that out. We even have a talent called mental quickness http://www.wowhead.com/spell=30814 that increases our spell power. This alone should prove that SP can be a dps increase. This discussion is the same as why you should drop windfury totem over wrath of air when there's more melee then casters. More dps for the raid > more dps for you.

[ulubproness]

1) get a demo warlock
2) get an ele shammy
3) if ur guild is failing because they are missing out on FT totem (which i doubt) keep dropping that MT and realistically that FT isnt gonna do much in the way of caster dps marginal at best TBH

[russykh]

i would love to know how you can use magma totem and flametongue totem at the same time. they're both fire totems.

and you made that mistake multiple times so far in this thread.

I would love you to quote the exact part where he said anything about someone using magma and flametongue at the same time.

[Deleted]

if you checked the post he made before that, he said:

Incorrect. We benefit from FT totem. We have lots of spells that benefit LB, FN, MT, ES, Flame Shock etc, around 50% of Enh damage is spellpower these ALL benefit from FT totem.

i read this as "MT benefits from FT totem". since you can't have both up at the same time, this is a slight mistake.

but this is not meant as a personal attack, just something i noticed.

[russykh]

if you checked the post he made before that, he said:

i read this as "MT benefits from FT totem". since you can't have both up at the same time, this is a slight mistake.

but this is not meant as a personal attack, just something i noticed.

As you dont seem to be getting it....

MT benefits from spellpower. If another shaman drops FT totem, and you drop MT, it benefits from the extra SP. If you re-read his posts, he's never so much as implied that someone would be dropping both, but pointing out which spells would benefit from it being there, irrelevant of the source. No mistakes made on his part, everything he has said here is correct. If he has said "you should drop FT as it affects your blah, blah, blah, and MT", then you could say it was a mistake.

[M4d2m0A]

It's obvious the guy is just trying to Nitpick Levva to death. Honestly the guy made ShockandAwe, a max dps addon for shamans, and you're questioning his knowledge of the class mechanics. I would triple check myself before even thinking of questioning something he says in a post.

[Vargarii]

You guys do realize that the guy you are lashing out at wrote the enh shaman faqs, and relied HEAVILY on Levva's input and critique, don't you?

Seems your nitpicking is a little less researched imo.

Nzall isn't attacking Levva, nor do they have any problems.


/edit Let me correct this, it was gemming and simming, as Levva wrote the Actual general FAQ

[Omanley]

While MT does benefit from FT, we´re talking about a 10man situation here where the spellpower buff is not present unless you bring it.
So in the case you´re the only one to provide FT, your MT wont benefit from it obviously.

[Primaryjane]

Levva, I'm so sorry this thread turned out the way it did. Please feel free to lock it, as I have what I was looking for.

[Deleted]

look, i did not mean to personally attack levva. i just have the habit to pull minor fallacies from other people's reasoning that might undermine their opinion's validity. if anything i said comes across as a personal attack on levva, then i would like to apologize. of course i know that you can't have magma totem and flametongue totem up at the same time. of course i know that magma totem benefits from flametongue totem if they are dropped by different shamans.

edit: vargarii, thanks for supporting me. indeed, i rely on Levva's critique and input for my FAQ. if i were to insult him or otherwise demean him, that would be dangerous for me. although Levva's input has stopped coming recently, i still support him and fully believe in anything he does for these forums, and those from EJ.