View Poll Results: How many months will the ignorance go on?

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  • Not at all

    25 10.55%
  • 1

    7 2.95%
  • 2

    8 3.38%
  • 3

    6 2.53%
  • some people just wont get it.

    191 80.59%
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  1. #61

    Re: Inc Healing Ignorance

    Ill just create a macro similar to what a lot of tanks have pretty much outlining;

    Healings changed, in more ways then one and that i will have to drink, i will go oom if people take to many unnecessary hits, any that i wont be able to keep everyone at 100% all the time (tank excluded).

    New dungeons are a learning experince, take it slow and speak up if you don't know a boss/pull.

    If anyone starts bitching/moaning, kick and get a (hopfully less ignorant) new dps

  2. #62

    Re: Inc Healing Ignorance

    I already don't heal dps unless they need it. Now I can just say I'm prepping them for cata.
    Nom Nom Nom [NNF] (2 points) - When you Ferocious Bite a target at or below 25% health, you have a 50/100% chance to instantly refresh the duration of your Rip on the target.

  3. #63

    Re: Inc Healing Ignorance

    Well, I do see where you're coming from but when I dps I'll always want to be topped off for the sole reason that I don't trust people in randoms. Very rarely does anyone play to the best of their abilities when they're in a group with people from different server and rep isn't on the line anymore. And just like the mod said in the second post, which wasn't very constructive and didn't expect that from a mod, but people don't read party chat. So when you say "brb bio" and these people aren't paying attention and pull anyways it'll be safer with full health.

    It's the same reason why, as a lock, I always SS myself. First off, I shouldn't have to SS in a heroic anyway. Second, it seems everytime I do the healer dies in some retarded spot that when he uses the SS he gets killed and it's wasted.

    But yea back on topic, when I get healers like this I usually just go through more food and bandages. Not a big deal but I'd rather be topped off at all times. Even in cata I still think you should top off even if it means you'll have to drink every 4-5 pulls. There's a reason why our health pool is increasing so by keeping it at 50% is defeating the purpose.

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  4. #64

    Re: Inc Healing Ignorance

    my friends bitch at me enough when i'm healing :P i won't be in a group with randoms np.

  5. #65

    Re: Inc Healing Ignorance

    Im healing instances with out mana regen as i level, its fun. As Kel said, renew ticks after combat will deal with it.
    This will be interesting. DPS are silly.
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  6. #66

    Re: Inc Healing Ignorance

    Quote Originally Posted by Dominate
    I had the best heroic - think it was Gundrak - where somehow a really good paladin tank decided to pull all the rhinos at once before the last boss, resulting in chain silencing and three melee dps (no idea what their classes were and I don't care), and they literally died like that, assuming cleave but then I wasn't really paying attention. After spam healing myself and this tank I read back the chat and was just amazed by the spam of "omfg cr???" "hel?" and "rez ffs" after :. The strange part is it was very amusing just to realise the whole time we'd killed the mobs they were sitting on their butts spamming abuse at me for apparently not healing a cleave when silenced.

    Well that and seeing abusive people die amuses me. I'll always res, but I just found that run especially very amusing.
    I've had something similar happen before as well, though it was only one death. He gave me abuse, so I told him that I was silenced, and giving grief to the healer won't help any. So I didn't rez him and we killed the boss anyway.

    Seriously, don't give me grief. If it was actually my fault, I'll apologise. And don't grief the tank either, or you'll find yourself without any heals and a repair bill. I don't like griefers, and I will punish them for being jackasses.

  7. #67

    Re: Inc Healing Ignorance

    Quote Originally Posted by Durandro
    I've had something similar happen before as well, though it was only one death. He gave me abuse, so I told him that I was silenced, and giving grief to the healer won't help any. So I didn't rez him and we killed the boss anyway.

    Seriously, don't give me grief. If it was actually my fault, I'll apologise. And don't grief the tank either, or you'll find yourself without any heals and a repair bill. I don't like griefers, and I will punish them for being jackasses.

    Except for the fact that the healer was standing in an avoidable 12 yard AOE silence.

    Who woulda guessed? It actually WAS your fault! Now go and apologize to that DPS before he punishes you for being a jackass.

  8. #68

    Re: Inc Healing Ignorance

    I don't think people realize just how different Cataclysm healing will be. You won't be able to top someone off with any kind of heal as health pools will be massive compared to your healing amount. They're doing this partly to balance pvp, so they can get rid of burst as the main pvp tactic. If you heal for 20k on 25k health pools now, I'd expect you to heal for 20k on 100-150k health pools in Cataclysm. You'll need at least 10 seconds of full spam healing to bring a dps from 1% to full, and more than that for a tank.

    This does not mean that everyone will be close to full health, as raid bosses will still do a lot of damage compared to your healing output. Instead you might have a few people at 20% health, several at 40%, a couple at 60%, and most of the raid at 80-90% health in raid encounters. You're going to need to prioritize who you heal first to keep everyone alive. The people at 80-90% are stable, and getting efficient healing from passive sources. The people at 20% and 40% are critical and may die very quickly if not saved. You'll probably only see the entire raid on max health at the start of encounters and on phase changes with no damage.

  9. #69

    Re: Inc Healing Ignorance

    Well, at least with the change to Bandages they announced the DPS can (read: will) heal themselves up without having to stand around between pulls.
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  10. #70

    Re: Inc Healing Ignorance

    then they will just learn to deal with it from all the smart healers who save their mana by not healing the DPS when they don't need it...or someone (like me) will tell them about patch notes and that they should really l2 read them
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  11. #71

    Re: Inc Healing Ignorance

    Quote Originally Posted by Arcanefodder

    Except for the fact that the healer was standing in an avoidable 12 yard AOE silence.

    Who woulda guessed? It actually WAS your fault! Now go and apologize to that DPS before he punishes you for being a jackass.
    Ignoring that the tank was standing just over the edge of the steps when the pull was made, and I was out of LOS, and hense needed to move up the stairs to heal people.

    Yeah, TOTALLY my fault. I guess I should have used my magic healing beams that don't need line of sight, amirite?

  12. #72

    Re: Inc Healing Ignorance

    Quote Originally Posted by Durandro
    Ignoring that the tank was standing just over the edge of the steps when the pull was made, and I was out of LOS, and hense needed to move up the stairs to heal people.

    Yeah, TOTALLY my fault. I guess I should have used my magic healing beams that don't need line of sight, amirite?
    Prayer of Healing, have a nice day.

  13. #73

    Re: Inc Healing Ignorance

    Anyone that starts yelling for a heal will simply not get one.
    Yelling for a healing doesnt inspire me to top you off faster.

  14. #74

    Re: Inc Healing Ignorance

    The intention to make people think about what eal they have to cast is a good idea.

    Unfortunately, it will end like in every expansion so far, halfway trought the first raid instance you will be geared well enugh to spam heal your best heal and never go oom.
    Ecce homo ergo elk

  15. #75

    Re: Inc Healing Ignorance

    Overhealing will matter. Mana management will matter.

    Is this the end for Holy Paladins?

  16. #76

    Re: Inc Healing Ignorance

    Quote Originally Posted by Arcanefodder
    The bottom one is not true at all.
    If the whole group is good you need LESS healers, therefore if you go without an extra healer it doesnt matter, DPS makes the fight faster.
    Which is also true if you compare old raids to the new ones, if everyone is good/outgears it, healers are no longer needed as much, DPS is always needed.

    Throwing the DPS is expendable card never rides right with me, good DPS is NEVER expendable on Hardmodes or actual progression and saying that they are is really arrogant.

    That's like saying that a Tank can do whatever he wants or mouth off to a group/raid because he thinks he's nigh-God for being able to tank a boss, just because 5-7 people are good at playing whack-a-mole for 5 minutes to keep people up during a fight doesn't make you irreplaceable, there is ALWAYS a better player out there and healers arent exactly hard to find. The only reason people state such things in thier ignorant haze is because there are less raid spots for you, not because there are less OF you. Even if there are DOUBLE the amount of DPS to healers/tanks on any given server, healers and tanks are more easily replaced than dps.

    3 tanks = 30 on the server 1/10
    6 healers = 30 on the server 1/5
    14 dps = 60 on the server 1/4.28
    Ok, first off I do agree with the first part. If everyone is good then you can sub a Healer for a DPS. But how many times do you see a good group? I understand that some guilds are like that but at least 75% of all guilds out there have a few DPS, healers, or tanks that are not good. so you have to make up for it with talent or more of one or the other.
    Next point. I guess the word Expendable is a little too harsh. I would rather have a full set of great DPS than some decent DPS and a an extra healer to help with the overall dmg. It makes the fights longer and that can be taxing on how long people stay on to finish the raid.
    Next point. Any tank that starts mouthing off to the rest of the raid = BAD TANK. You have to have patience. mouthing off to people for not doing their job properly will only incourage some to f it up more. That helps no one. If a tank is good they will take the time to help them out and figure out what is happening that needs improvement. "Elite" tanks should know this and help instead of makeing the situation worse.
    And there is a flaw in your ratios. There is never only 2x the amount of DPS on a server. Someone earlier gave a 65% DPS on a ny given server. I would have to agree with it. Due to the numbers... it is easier to replace a good DPS than it is a good healer or tank. I am not saying I would want to. Just that it would be easier. It sucks, but that is how life (virtual or real) goes.
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  17. #77

    Re: Inc Healing Ignorance

    I would like to assert a few points on the replace-ability of one role versus another role, and perhaps what really cements the current notions (for better or for worse).

    I will preface my discussion with the following:

    -Great DPS/Tanks/Healers are nearly irreplaceable; by great I mean that each person works well with the raid, interrupts (if capable and it's their 'turn'), gets out of the fire, uses their own survival abilities, keeps their buffs up, helps to create/maintain good positioning, and in general is a mature/adaptive/open minded player. (These people are 99% of the time punctual, have pots/flasks/food/reagents/ammo/cash for repairs, and know how most every other class works)

    -Good DPS/Tanks/Healers are much simpler to replace. There are a lot of people who are capable, but not nearly at full potential. They will get the job done, eventually.

    -Bad DPS/Tanks/Healers should be removed as fast as is conveniently possible. I know everyone makes mistakes and has an unlucky streak, but no one is ALWAYS unlucky and most of us learn from our mistakes and don't make the same ones over and over.

    -Farm and progression composition are two very different things. Dual spec also makes farm content even more trivial than it previously was. The person who was very critical of people shitting on DPS makes excellent points about the impact of good to great DPS, and about being able to swap out a healer (once the instance is really understood and the group is properly, or overly, geared for it). Progression takes more heals in order to keep people alive long enough to learn what is really going on, plus the tanks are usually not all the way geared right off the rip.

    -Each role is equally important. Good luck making an enrage timer with no DPS. Good luck living through all that slime with no heals. Good luck kiting/nuking most any boss before it gets a hold of ANYONE.

    All that being said, my server (Lightning's Blade, US) is roughly 66% dps, 17% tanks, and 17% heals, roughly (going by the raw percentages from WoW census and dividing them down by class and spec, so my numbers represent a potential population; obviously dual spec messes with my assumptions a LOT, but this is only a cursory explanation). I also ignored arms warriors for DPS in my calculation, which would push dps up some and tanks down a little (67.5% dps, 15.5%tanks, and 17% heals). For 10man raids with a 2 tank/3 healer/5 dps set up, we have an excess of dps available and a lack in available tanks and heals. This affects competition for raid spots in odd ways. I don't want to go into a deep discussion of it, so I will say that on the face of it, dps are easier to swap out, in this set up. This will change when we can get down to farm content of course (1 tank for most of it, 2 healers, and 7 dps), then it's harder to replace dps, we now have a lack of resources.

    For 25man content the waters a lot more murky. Everyone is, more or less, in demand. 3 tanks/5 healers/17 dps (feel free to insert your own comp here). In this instance, healers and DPS are the most difficult, by population, to replace, and healers just a little more so. If we add a healer and drop a dps, then healers are the most difficult, by far, to replace, and dps become in excess again. If we drop a tank and gain a dps, from the 3/17 numbers, dps becomes, relatively, harder to replace and one could feasibly go tank shopping. What really drives the changes, though? That's what's really important.

    More often than not, it is simpler to replace a dps, however that does not diminish the importance of dps at all.

    Keep in mind, this is a quantitative discussion, and we must keep to the strange world of statistics and assumptions (individuals and their experiences fall outside of this discussion). If I were to hand pick a group, I, of course, would want all great players, and I would beg/bribe/borrow/steal my way into getting the best and best working group possible.

    OT: People will get the idea soon enough, and I already think in triage anyway, so this is no big shift for me.

  18. #78

    Re: Inc Healing Ignorance

    its like telling dps to ''DPS HARDER'' like if you arent supose to always be doing max dps or healing..

  19. #79
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    Re: Inc Healing Ignorance

    Quote Originally Posted by Denegaar
    Some people is just stupid.
    I see what you did there

    +1

    On Topic: I will let them die if they complain and not resurrect them.

  20. #80

    Re: Inc Healing Ignorance

    Quote Originally Posted by think309
    Basically, they're returning to how it was in vanilla. I *LOVED* playing my holy priest in vanilla. I can't do it anymore. I guess I don't have the mad skillz needed to heal anymore or something. Back in the day, dps often were not at full hps in instances. We're just going back to that. In wrath, usually it's either the dps is at full, or dead. I've tried to heal both on my shammy and my priest. It infuriates me that the damage the mobs do now is so crazy to non-tanks. I'm glad we're going back to the old model where healing can be enjoyable and not super-stressful. Some stress is ok and fun. Constantly worrying that the dps will be dead in 2 seconds at any time is not fun.
    Well said. Some of my favorite days in vanilla were healing strath back when it was "a tough instance." I remember as a priest getting a 100% mana efficient prayer of healing in a group was like a miracle. Now I just spam it and circle of healing because it's easier than healing individuals.

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