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  1. #41

    Re: PvE moonkin guide (updated for 3.3.3)

    Do them with a tank friend that will pull worthwhile AoE pulls.

  2. #42

    Re: PvE moonkin guide (updated for 3.3.3)

    If you don't have the T10 idol yet is it still better to only have one dot up per eclipse or should I be refreshing moonfire as soon as it ends?

  3. #43
    Dreadlord Garnik's Avatar
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    Re: PvE moonkin guide (updated for 3.3.3)

    If you don't have the relic, then i think you should ignore Dots completely, and just use Wrath and SF.
    Unless if its a Single mob with a higher health pool then the usual 63-65k hp. Like the trash in the ICC dungeons.
    Then he fapped to his own pseudo-intellectualism and no one ever loved him. Ever.

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  4. #44

    Re: PvE moonkin guide (updated for 3.3.3)

    Very nice guide Qieth. I like to think I know most of the stuff in there so I'll just comment on what newbies might find about it. It's a very easy read, doesn't come across as a wall of text while being read. All the important things stand out.

    Only thing I'd say is you might want to put a note on AVR/AVRE in useful addons, since it's going to bite the bullet soon.
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  5. #45

    Re: PvE moonkin guide (updated for 3.3.3)

    Quote Originally Posted by Garnik
    If you don't have the relic, then i think you should ignore Dots completely, and just use Wrath and SF.
    Unless if its a Single mob with a higher health pool then the usual 63-65k hp. Like the trash in the ICC dungeons.
    I have the T9 idol which is 200 crit rating from moonfire only.

    What I really wanted to know is would I still stick to using just moonfire or insect swarm depending on the eclipse cycle i'm on or keep moonfire up 100% of the time and put insect swarm up for solar.

  6. #46
    Dreadlord Garnik's Avatar
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    Re: PvE moonkin guide (updated for 3.3.3)

    Quote Originally Posted by undeadsmarties
    I have the T9 idol which is 200 crit rating from moonfire only.

    What I really wanted to know is would I still stick to using just moonfire or insect swarm depending on the eclipse cycle i'm on or keep moonfire up 100% of the time and put insect swarm up for solar.
    No. I don't think you should keep Moonfire up 100% of the time. Everthing dies so fast that it will be a lose if you keep anything up 100%. On the pull, put MF on 1 target(try and do it on one where the entire 15 seconds could run), and it will proc your relic, then just do Wrath or SF depending on where you are in the rotation, and just completely ignore IS during trash.

    There is no specific way of doing it, no matter what you cast the target is going down in matter of seconds, so if you use all your time dotting up, it will probaly end up dying before the dot can run for its entire duration which = dps loss.
    Then he fapped to his own pseudo-intellectualism and no one ever loved him. Ever.

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  7. #47

    Re: PvE moonkin guide (updated for 3.3.3)

    Quote Originally Posted by undeadsmarties
    I have the T9 idol which is 200 crit rating from moonfire only.

    What I really wanted to know is would I still stick to using just moonfire or insect swarm depending on the eclipse cycle i'm on or keep moonfire up 100% of the time and put insect swarm up for solar.
    Heroics: ^

    Raiding:
    Insect Swarm (Unglyphed) should be up 100% of the time on boss fights that it really helps: Saurfang, Putri P3, Festergut, ect.
    Moonfire should be kept up 100% of the time if you are still packin' 2pc Tier 9.

    Otherwise, rotation Qieth has typed up.
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  8. #48
    Dreadlord Garnik's Avatar
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    Re: PvE moonkin guide (updated for 3.3.3)

    I'm not to sure on how much the Hit Debuff of IS cowers. Will it also give the bosses various spells a chance to miss? Like Blood Bolts on BQL, or Frost Bolt Nova on Lady D?
    Then he fapped to his own pseudo-intellectualism and no one ever loved him. Ever.

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  9. #49
    BOOMkin Qieth's Avatar
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    Re: PvE moonkin guide (updated for 3.3.3)

    Quote Originally Posted by undeadsmarties
    I have the T9 idol which is 200 crit rating from moonfire only.

    What I really wanted to know is would I still stick to using just moonfire or insect swarm depending on the eclipse cycle i'm on or keep moonfire up 100% of the time and put insect swarm up for solar.
    Why wouldn't you have the T10 idol yet?

    Anyways, you'd probably be best off refreshing moonfire when it falls off. Even with a 100 uptime on moonfire, the T9 idol isn't up all the time - it was about 80% on the fights I looked at back then (which is why T10 idol is soooo much nicer, since it is definately up 100% of the time). You don't really want to let it drop off.

    Get the T10 idol when you can. Its a straight upgrade from 160 effective crit rating to 220.

    Quote Originally Posted by Kallume
    Heroics: ^

    Raiding:
    Insect Swarm (Unglyphed) should be up 100% of the time on boss fights that it really helps: Saurfang, Putri P3, Festergut, ect.
    Moonfire should be kept up 100% of the time if you are still packin' 2pc Tier 9.

    Otherwise, rotation Qieth has typed up.
    3% less chance to hit IS nice, but you really shouldn't go out on a limb to provide it, unless you are having some serious problems with fights. Lets be fair, most of the time the tank is spammed with heals anyways. If there aren't specific needs for it, don't think much about it. But it is a possible extra little buff if you really, really need that avoidance.
    ~ Armory - Youtube ~
    No longer the King of Moonkins, but perhaps the Prince of Shamans?

  10. #50

    Re: PvE moonkin guide (updated for 3.3.3)

    Could you do me like a huge favour and just add in the BiS for balance in there too pretty please ? Even if you just link in what the other thread is saying ? pls pls pls :P ?

  11. #51

    Re: PvE moonkin guide (updated for 3.3.3)

    Speaking of BiS, how does haste cap? Does it cap at 100%? Since in BiS we are looking at 51% from gear and talents, 30% from bloodlust and 20% from Nature's Grace.
    This grants you 135% faster casting (1.2*1.3*1.51=2.35-1=1.35*100%=135%).
    So is that 35% extra haste helpfull or does it cap before that point?
    I've always been thinking it doesn't since I've been cast Starfire with a casttime >1.5sec., but I just wanted to be sure.

  12. #52
    BOOMkin Qieth's Avatar
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    Re: PvE moonkin guide (updated for 3.3.3)

    In moonkin form with no haste, my starfires are at 2,83 seconds. This is because of the 6% we get from talents.

    At 880 haste rating, or 26,84% haste, my starfires are at 2,23 seconds. So it took 26,9% off the cast time. With Nature's grace up, i have 1,86 sec starfires. It took 20% off the 2,23 sec. If it was the other way around, with (26,84+20) 46,84%, my cast time would have been down at 1,5 seconds. It's not.

    I am not 100% sure where Bloodlust is calculated in, but it doesn't just add everything up in a nice big pile. And go haste + bloodlust + nature's grace = 76,84% haste. That would mean that my starfires during bloodlust would have to be 0,654862 seconds. They are not :P If someone has the correct math on how Bloodlust works, please feel free to post them.

    In any case, no, there is no upper cap on haste. Well there is, but it would be damn hard to reach it. With 880 haste, I can still only get down to 1,37 sec starfires during bloodlust, and I doub we could ever reach a place where we could even get them down to 1 second during bloodlust in this expansion.

    Quote Originally Posted by Poldara
    Could you do me like a huge favour and just add in the BiS for balance in there too pretty please ? Even if you just link in what the other thread is saying ? pls pls pls :P ?
    Why? BIS lists are theoretical, and probably not something you want to write down in stone.
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  13. #53

    Re: PvE moonkin guide (updated for 3.3.3)

    According to http://www.wowwiki.com/Spell_haste, haste works that way so that's what I used in my calculation. With our BiS in 3.3.5 we will be rocking 1460+ haste so thats 44.5% haste from gear alone + 6% from our talents. So it will be, according to that wowwiki link, 1.505 * 1.2 * 1.3 = 2.35 - 1 * 100% = 135% increase. So instead of casting 5 starfire's in 15 seconds we will cast 11.75 starfire's in 15 seconds. Which means the cast time would be; 15 / 11.75 = 1.28 second cast time, which sounds believeable to me. Think I actually answered my own question there.

    EDIT:
    Forgot the totem of wrath... giving it a casttime of 1.22 seconds. That would also mean that with a Potion of Speed and Hyperspeed Accelerators we will be casting starfire's in 0.94 seconds... which is kinda sick. (Math: 1.06 * 1.44 * 1.05 * 1.2* 1.3 * 1.1 * 1.15 = 3.16 - 1 = 216% increase. So instead of casting 5 starfires in 15 seconds you can cast 15.8 starfire's in 15 seconds. 15 / 15.8 = 0.94). Sounds unbelievable but that's what it says on wowwiki.

  14. #54

    Re: PvE moonkin guide (updated for 3.3.3)

    All haste sources are multiplicative.
    Celestial focus = 3%
    Moonkin/Ret = 3%
    Gear = 44.5%
    1.445*1.03*1.03 = 1.533
    WoA = 5%
    NG = 20%
    1.533 * 1.05 * 1.2 = 1.93
    BL = 30%
    1.93 * 1.3 = 2.51

    Wrath cast time = 1.5 / 2.51 = .6s
    Double that to get Starfire cast time = 1.2s

    To achieve 1s starfires, you need 200% haste.

    See Resto thread for more info.
    Section "10. Detailed Stat Breakdowns"

  15. #55

    Re: PvE moonkin guide (updated for 3.3.3)

    Quote Originally Posted by Qieth
    Why? BIS lists are theoretical, and probably not something you want to write down in stone.
    Huh ? Every other class / spec can have one except us ? Is there not a big thread debating it ? Since each stat has a set value surely it's whatever gives the highest stat value ? Only thoeritcal part I can see is with weapons heroic nibelung's proc vs stats on say bonespike :P

    Afterall if we can say that PoNL and DFO are BIS trinkets as they give the highest DPS ratings ... why don't we have a gear list that does the same ? Pretty much all other classes have one. I've even seen you talk about PSB(heroic) being the BIS boots for a balance druid , how can you make a statement like that and then say it's purely theoritcal ? Not trying to sound offensive either it's just that , that's a completly different approach to what you've taken in other threads in relation to gearing.

    Why do I like having a BiS list ? It's something to aim for :P On my mage for example I've been picking up pieces of BiS loot some of it I have equip'd some of it I don't as it's not an upgrade yet. But it's nice to fool about with different gear'ing choices and different stats to see what suits best at the moment and what to look for potentially "If I can replace A with D I can swap in B for C and get a huge upgrade to stats" etc.. :P

  16. #56

    Re: PvE moonkin guide (updated for 3.3.3)

    Quote Originally Posted by Thalur
    In my opinion, the best-in-slot item set is very much set in stone. There is really only one option for every item, except hands/legs combination. So here comes my best in slot set, only excluding items from Lich King heroic.

    Wowhead profile: http://www.wowhead.com/?profile=21268196

    Head: Sanctified Lasherweave Cover (277 T10 token)
    Neck: Blood Queen's Crimson Choker (Blood Queen)
    Shoulder: Sanctified Lasherweave Mantle (277 T10 token)
    Back: Frostbinder's Shredded Cape (Dreamwalker)
    Chest: Sanctified Lasherweave Vestment (277 T10 token)
    Wrist: The Lady's Brittle Bracers (Lady Deathwhisper CLOTH)
    Hands: Sanctified Lasherweave Gloves (277 T10 token)
    Waist: Crushing Coldwraith Belt (Lord Marrowgar CLOTH)
    Legs: Plaguebringer's Stained Pants (Festergut CLOTH)
    Feet: Plague Scientist's Boots (Festergut CLOTH)
    Ring: Ashen Band of Endless Destruction (Reputation)
    Ring: Ring of Rapid Ascent (Gunship)
    Trinket: Phylactery of the Nameless Lich (Sindragosa)
    Trinket: Dislodged Foreign Object (Rotface)
    Main Hand: Frozen Bonespike (Lord Marrowgar)
    Off Hand: Shadow Silk Spindle (Blood Princes)
    Idol: Idol of the Lunar Eclipse (Emblem of Frost)

    Note that Qieth is already wearing 5 of these items, while I do have the belt :P
    Interestingly, you get almost as much haste as crit (while gemming haste).
    Haste: 1149. Crit: 1184.
    The only thing theoretical about it is valuing a weapon proc like Poldara guessed at and how to get to the BiS list. The list itself doesn't have a lot to debate over. Unless of course you want to get into a cloth vs leather debate.

  17. #57
    BOOMkin Qieth's Avatar
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    Re: PvE moonkin guide (updated for 3.3.3)

    I'm not saying that we shouldn't have a BIS topic - heck, I made one. I'm just saying that I don't think it has any place in a guide such as this. A BIS list changes constantly, and its not *really* relevant for this. Furthermore, BIS lists are only ever relevant to those that can actually obtain the gear. If you are starting out as a moonkin, chances are you are not about to battle over a pair of heroic cloth boots. Then there's the whole topic of cloth vs leather. Should we make two BIS lists in this topic, one for all items, and one for those in guilds that doesn't allow druids to roll on cloth? Nay, I would rather have this in another topic - it doesn't really help them play better, it just tells people what to do, and I'd like to think that the information in this guide can help people make their own choices when it comes to gear.
    ~ Armory - Youtube ~
    No longer the King of Moonkins, but perhaps the Prince of Shamans?

  18. #58

    Re: PvE moonkin guide (updated for 3.3.3)

    Well it's an extremely useful guide but it doesn't say for beginners it's a PvE moonkin Guide (updated for 3.3.3) I know this very nit-picky but I'm going to argue the case to add one in because I love having a quick reference. A BiS list changes about as much as a guide for moonkins everyone here knows with ruby sanctum being released that's it for top end gear. That will be staying the same for the next 4/5 months however long. So a BiS list wouldn't change. In-fact a BiS list changes just about as much as a rotation. Come cataclysm things will drastically change yes but look at each major content patch , things change . Example ? Recent glyph change to add in SFall glyph / Changes to Dot uptime etc... People can make their own choices with gear etc... and I'm pretty useful enough at math to use the stat values appropriate for me and calculate the difference per piece but I sometimes tunnel vision and don't look at it as a whole , example I did something similar on my mage and realised I had to change around a lot of things to re-gain hit just based on the fact that I was after swapping in a piece that was an upgrade stat wise but not looking at the bigger picture

    Cloth -vs- leather is a pointless debate which I just really dont' want to get into. If it's the best for you DPS wise it's the best for you DPS wise. I'm not going to get a downgrade on an item cause it's leather so sum1 else can have their shiny new loot, I'm going to squeeze out that .1% increase because I can.

    If it was addon management or how to move as little as possible that I was asking to be put in not 100% related to a druid then I would just not even bother but a BiS list is 100% related , really nice to have in a guide and very obtainable even pugs on my server are on 10/12 heroic :P

    If a BiS list is only relevant to someone who can obtain the gear you could look at it from a point that a rotation is only relevant to someone who can obtain a level of knowledge to understand the guide. It's very straightforward almost to the point of perfection in a mini-guide format. Yet there is still threads of "fix my balance druid" or "Help my balance druid".

    Basically I'm looking for a mini-go2guide for the gear so I can see where I am going it's a personal request really and most guides have such in there. The reason the other topic isn't useful for me ? It's 14pages long not even on the front page anymore and I'm not bumping it with nothing to add cause I'll get banned :P I think it's always a nice addition for anyone to read a guide see everything in action and then see it in the form of an actual physical setup. It can be helpful to see where the stats are going and what you are aiming for.

    If it's a simple "hi this is how you play a druid , 4 , 3 ,3 ,3 , 1x7 , 2 , 1 , 3x10" that's fine I'll revoke my request but I like having a wealth of info available when I need it and I would LOVE YOU FOREVER if you did it :P

  19. #59

    Re: PvE moonkin guide (updated for 3.3.3)

    I have to agree with Qieth on this. If a BiS list is really so important that it needs to appear in a sticky, then someone can make a "BiS lists for all specs" thread and try to get it stickied. But Qieth's arguments against one appearing in this guide are completely valid.
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  20. #60

    Re: PvE moonkin guide (updated for 3.3.3)

    When are which spells evaluated?

    Most notably in relation to the 2pc t10 and similar procs.
    Trying to figure out if i want to increase priority on dot application/starfall outside of normal rotation priority.

    Ie. is it worth starfalling during omen of doom or does it make no difference when starfall/dots are cast the damage will be increased for the 6 second omen duration only?

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